Virginity testing 'a must':

Exactly my thought, Wheel. Exactly.

only girls have to be virgins to be worthy.

The tone of that sentence is sarcastic.

How do they test the boys virginity?

Depends how many of the girls fail I suppose....

How do they test the boys virginity?

No, no. Boys can have sex as much as they want and it's okay. Duh.

How do they test the boys virginity?

I watched a show about this once, and it has something to do with the top of the knee. But this show may never have existed and my mind made this up.

no it's if your hand is bigger than your face...
wait that's no fun unless i'm there.

How do they test the boys virginity?

Unicorns. Trained unicorns.

hehe :)

Thank you. Coming from you, that means something. ;:-)

Unicorns. Trained unicorns.

lol

Doesn't matter for boys because they can't get pregnant, and therefore can't pass off someone else's baby on a prospective spouse. They can, however, deny paternity of the kids that they have in fact sired, but DNA testing is rapidly leveling that playing field.

Doesn't matter for boys because they can't get pregnant, and therefore can't pass off someone else's baby on a prospective spouse.

This is not what the tradition is about. The point is to prove that the girl is pure ie has never had sex. However, you may have brought up a point about how this tradition could have started, if is wasn't simply a patriarchal wet dream.

Doesn't matter for boys because they can't get pregnant

But they are still just as responsible for the resulting child.

Anidmia: I agree, but until the advent of DNA testing it was fairly easy for boys to evade that responsibility. I'm pretty sure that the custom about virginity on the wedding night was specifically intended to prevent a girl from passing off a child she'd already conceived on someone else. Another benefit from the bridegroom's point of view might be that an insecure young man might feel a little more, er, confident if he didn't have to worry about not measuring up, as it were, so to speak, to previous gentlemen in the young lady's past.

Why shouldn't we hold men to the same standards of virginity as women?

we should definitely hold men to the same standard.

I recommend lowering the standards.......so us men will feel comfortable being held to them.

Happy about it too!

Doesn't matter for boys because they can't get pregnant

But they are still just as responsible for the resulting child.

In many traditional societies this is simply not true - a girl falling pregnant outside of wedlock is an embarrassment only to herself and her family, the boy is of little consequence.

In India, they burn her in the street, honor killings. In some Muslim theocracies, they hang or stone them. Even if the girl is raped. Even if they know who raped her.

Just because it is that way doesn't mean that it should be that way.

"In India, they burn her in the street, honor killings. In some Muslim theocracies, they hang or stone them. Even if the girl is raped. Even if they know who raped her."

Yes....an importent point for looking at cultural practices of many societies and religions, and the vile and evil side of the old 'double-standard'. So I guess the first question to ask is whether the girl is vilified and punished for failing to live up to the standards the tradition demands of her. Is the tradition a 'celebration' of sorts....or a 'test' of her character?

The 'character' test is one that could be fairly applied to BOTH sexes.....and should be.

Just because it is that way doesn't mean that it should be that way.

Gee, ya think? Did you see anything in my post even remotely suggesting that I condone this @!$%#? Or do you always just state that which is obvious as a public service for the cognitional handicapped.

Andimia 2.21-

"Just because it is that way doesn't mean that it should be that way."

Of course you're right. Sometimes 'tradition' is nothing more than a convenient means to repress women.....and sometimes with the most unbelievable cruelty. Though it doesn't sound like that with the Zulus.

Dubbya R,
Good questions. It seems to me that you are suggesting a possible compromise. Instead of saying this is an either/or question it could be a question of what is best. I personally believe that people ought to wait until marriage to have sex. I did not do that and suffered for it. That being said, it's not my place to force that on anyone. When asked, I tell people. Also, when I was teaching Sunday school and working with youthgroups I would teach that. So to answer your question I would say that virginity as a character test fits my ideal situation. It takes a lot of character to remain a virgin until marriage today. I look at someone like AC Green who played for the Lakers in the NBA and remained a virgin. Man, that's integrity. That's not to say that I am judging those who don't wait because I'd be a hypocrite to do so.

leogodin-

Not so much a 'compromise', as looking more closely at this or any 'tradition'. I think the Zulu practices can be too easily and quickly judged by our Western standards, without knowing enough. Even within our own culture in the U.S. it is far too easy to generalize on the issues of virginity and 'out-of-wedlock' childbearing. Some are quite mature and responsible enough to handle the challenges, even at a young age. Judging harshly is also in no ones best interest.

But I don't suggest 'virginity' should be a character test for the Zulus or anyone else, if I seemed to imply that then I wrote poorly. A test of 'character' is far differant than judging someones ability to resist biological urges, or their failure to resist. How they handle the 'consequences'.....now that is a real test of character. Or 'why' they choose virginity or choose to not remain one can be as well.

People of good character can make poor decisions, and people of poor character can make good ones.

Dan I suggest you remove yourself from the computer a moment and get a glass of warm milk or something.

Did you see anything in my post even remotely suggesting that I condone this @!$%#?

Did you see anything in my post that even remotely suggested that I suggested you condone this @!$%#? Take a deep breath, not everything somebody types is intended as a personal attack on you. Not everything that everybody types is directed at your post unless otherwise stated. Thank you and have a glorious day : )

Andimia Do you think you should make that clear when you posted? Or do you like being ambiguous and misconstrued so you can play the castigator?

Thank you and have a glorious day : )

Thank you but I don't need any sanctimonious blessing from you. I would like to say that all you had to do was say, you are sorry for not being clear as to who you directing your post, that is not what you meant, and I would have apologized. But you had to be the polemicist. How you enjoy your day, or not, is up to you. •·¿•·

I would like to say that all you had to do was say, you are sorry for not being clear as to who you directing your post, that is not what you meant, and I would have apologized.

Honestly, if you want to get your feelings hurt over something that wasn't intended to hurt your (or anybody's) feelings then that is your problem. I'm not going to apologize because you put your own spin on my words, and if you're going to get upset about somebody wishing you a good day (I don't give blessings) then that is also your problem. I'm not here to fight and for that I will also not apologize.

Honestly, if you want to get your feelings hurt over something that wasn't intended to hurt your (or anybody's) feelings then that is your problem.

Honestly? LOL, please, do yourself a favor, let it go and just walk away...You have no power over me or my feelings. Get over yourself. LOL. No really.. thanks for the laugh. Who wants to fight? It's nothing to fight about, are you going to start telling me you're better educated and make more money then me now? LOL

This is off topic and we are being disrespectful to Celestina. So without any further ado. By.

Andimia-

I'm insulted.

You haven't done anything to insult me and that's why I'm insulted; because that way I don't have to admit I am wrong. Instead I can just blame you for something else that you also haven't done.

Someone missed their 'Happy-Nappy' I think.

or have been deceived about the process or reasoning in some way.

The reasoning process that values virginity sufficiently to make public certification process isn't socially healthy. It makes a commodity out of virginity and objectifies female sexuality. Somewhere between hyper-sexuality and chastity there is a respectful space for women to explore the risks of sex. Creating a social status & making a public spectacle of the condition isn't going to give young woman that space.

These girls have already been socialized into valuing virginity - the author says they are proud of their virginity. Public testing of virginity would elevate the condition even further from an individual assessment of personal risk toward an impersonal standard. I wouldn't encourage it.

could not break her hymen in the normal way, so had to go have it done surgically.

Can go the other way too......playing sports, working out, anything stressful on certain muscles could pop the little bugger without sex being involved....so any test that focuses solely on the hymen could not be 100% accurate.

Horseback riding is the one I hear bandied about most often in this regard, also hard athletic training, gymnastics, track, martial arts, etc.

I'll admit I climbed into the bathtub, slipped and pop went the weasel... to think it was the bathtub...

Riding on the cross bar of a bicycle on a rocky path...

There are many ways to break a hymen absent sexual intercourse. I don't know how you test for that sort of thing but I have known people who have gotten medical documentation of these kinds of accidents just in case they ever needed evidence that their hymen was broken through non-sexual activity.

lol what on earth would you need evidence for

I'm not sure although some have come from cultures where virginity is highly prized. In cases of arranged marriage, I suppose it would be helpful to have medical documentation that the hymen was broken through non-sexual means.

Not that such documentation would necessarily satisfy a virginity standard, but I'm guessing that one would have a good reason to go through the trouble of obtaining such evidence.

Well put. I'm sure we have customs and traditions that seem very strange and immoral to the Zulus. The "still a virgin" stigma is a dangerous tradition that pushes kids into sex before they are ready.

You forgot to turn off Caps Lock.

You forgot to turn off Caps Lock.

...or did they?

This is were she starts to go wrong...

IT'S ONLY LOGICAL...

Aren't these girls all under 15. That means 14 and below. Is it your opinion that they should be having consensual sex before age 15? With the aids epidemic in Africa that is very dangerous.

Whether or not they should be having sex before 15 doesn't preclude the fact that they might be having sex anyway.

So is your idea to promote sex among teens under 15? It seems to me that promoting virginity to young teens is a much better idea than promoting sex.

No I am not promoting sex among teens under 15. The fact of the matter is they may be exposed to sex before 15. Abstinence should always be the best case scenario, but that will never be the solution for everyone.

OK, fair enough.

Is it your opinion that they should be having consensual sex before age 15

My emphasis. No.

I don't think it's effective against child abuse or rape though.

I agree. I followed a link from this article to another one on the same site, dated 2005. A couple of excerpts didn't sit well in my mind...

The main reason for the testing is to maintain the purity of a woman...

and here:

Already the bill has been amended, taking into account objections from traditional leaders to restrict the ban on virginity testing to girls under 16. Consent must be given for girls older than 16.

But Zulu-Ndlovu believes girls must be exposed to the custom at an early age. "If you start at 18 they wouldn't know anything about it. She must become familiar with the practice. Sometimes we do it as early as six months, sometimes three years, because then it is very easy to detect whether a child has been raped.

"Starting late doesn't serve the purpose," said Zulu-Ndlovu.

Perhaps I am simply foisting judgements from my own cultural perspective, but if this were current practice in the US, there'd be a huge outcry I think.

Actually, I wonder if it is practice in some US religious compounds?

Thanks, Celestina. As ever, you're making me think! :o)

This simply reinforces the macho-men-shag-many-women / only-sluts-have-more-than-one-partner stereotype, which is already a massive problem in South Africa.

I wouldn't say it's only South Africa. So many characters on TV embody that statement. It's what is being fed to people now and anything else is looked upon as wrong. I say let it be. If a dude doesn't want to bed a crazy amount of women, what does that matter to you? If a woman wants to experience sex, it doesn't bother me in the least. The best thing that anyone can do is stop the judgemental bull@!$%# that gives those statements merit.

Or as the religious folk love to forget
"Let he without sin cast the first stone."

Sorry JustinPM, I know that lol. But it's a South African article talking about a Southern African practice, which is why I framed it like that.

Sometimes we do it as early as six months, sometimes three years, because then it is very easy to detect whether a child has been raped.

How about medical examines with a rape kit rather than "virginity testing"? (Thanks for the link, Tamh!)

No problem dungbeetlemania (wow, that's a mouthful, can I use beetle for short?).

I was just stating that I hate how groups condemn others for something that really has nothing to do with them. I honestly didn't really think I was replying to the comment more than enforcing it, but I am ridiculously tired. So if it doesn't make sense, please forgive the insanity.

Miss Dev, the rape thing is a fairly minor part of the cultural side of the virginity testing. Besides which, the rape kits are far too expensive for rural use.

JustinPM, you can do so with pleasure. dbm is also fine, I've even been called dung at times :)

I'm with you on the condemnation thing. Too many people will say things like "How can [group of people] think that [whatever]". They don't realise that cultures believe, feel and accept different things - this it what makes them different cultures after all.

Celestina

"I don't think trying to make sex taboo is ever a good thing"

This is very true, a lot of damage caused by making this topic "shameful".

As a plug, I, too, managed to seed a topic dealing with Sex - it's over on my site and is entitled "Sex in Space". An interesting overview of things to...happen.

Celestina,
I like your ability to see this as a complex issue and that it makes you think. Your paragraph full of "buts" shows a willingness to see both sides of the issue. We could use more of that on newsvine.

Celestina-

Without intimate knowlege of Zulu culture, it's tough to judge isn't it? Tradition reinforces the bonds of community, shared knowlege, and development into an adult; there is a lot to be said in favor of all that in this case, especially with the spread of aids. I wonder, do they have the right to refuse? If it was mentioned I missed it.

the men have to bear the overwhelming part of the responsibility.

It takes two to tango, and I think that the responsibility should be shared equally. But the most important thing to remember in regards to this article is that this tradition is just that, tradition. Nothing easy is going to remedy this. Good or bad, people cling to tradition.

AMEN!!! Besides-- a woman's value should be based on her personality, or her charity, or her contributions to society--- but not her sexual activity!!!

I think your idea works, but only in a closed and highly static system.

I would agree with Tacitus. Virginity by it's very nature is just a state of being. It's not more a restriction more than it is a lack of sexual activity.

And I don't really think that humans are meant for one partner either to be truthful, nature doesn't really have a whole lot of monogamous species. It does help in the upbringing I believe, but generally the mind of man says to spread the seed.

Promiscuity in the recent culture and probably the cultures before it in men's sake at least is usually lauded. How many people have talked of Kareen Abdul Jabaar's infamous count? There isn't really an example on the extreme of the other side, it's usually reserved for monks, nuns, and priests. Never just some celebrity that stayed celibate for a while.

Just my opinion.

P.S: Comments written with a lack of sleep, please excuse the insanity. Now for chicken patties!

A criminal offense where? Not in the country where it is being practiced.

I can assure you it is not a criminal offence. Did you notice that this is not a US story?

I can assure you it is not a criminal offence. Did you notice that this is not a US story?

Because only the US has laws? Did you read the part where the author says "To hell with the Children's Act. The Children's Act in itself defies black cultural practises!"? That is right next to links to related articles about virginity testing being banned.

Children's Bill gets the nod
22/06/2005 21:18 - (SA)

Cape Town - Ground-breaking legislation on childrens' rights was approved by the national assembly on Wednesday - nine years after it was first mooted.

The Children's Bill lowers the age of majority from 21 years to 18, outlaws virginity testing, paves the way for a register of child abusers and cracks down on child trafficking. http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_1725510,00.html

Because only the US has laws?

Wahhh HA hah Ah.....

Whoops, sorry PerryO. My bad, that was rather dumb.

I'd heard about the revirginization thing, to me, it sounds like a waste of money. But in other cultures if that is how you define a virgin, go right ahead.

That old Comedy Central Show, Strangers With Candy, had an episode dealing with virginity.

"Being a virgin is a wonderful and precious thing to hold on to. As long as it doesn't interfere with your having sex." (quote from movie database)

I don't think it's that. I think it's hard for people to understand traditions and customs from foreign cultures a lot of the time.

And why is it that just because it's got the label "tradition" or "culture" on it, it shouldn't be analyzed and/or critiqued?

In no way should anything not be critiqued or analyzed, but to state that one way is the "only" way is wrong as well. Just because something works in this culture doesn't mean something in another culture is "wrong". Analytical minds try and understand everything, but the truly analytical minds don't ever close the avenue of thought by saying that something is the "only" way.

"Shake off all the fears and servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1787.

While I understand what you're saying, I don't quite agree with your sentiment. I lived overseas for the last three years in Germany, and while it was great, I still like being on home soil so to speak.

JustinPM,

That's HOMELAND....(your comment has been recorded for future reference.

It doesn't necessarily have to be land Tacitus. A nation is more than it's boundaries. I was glad to get back to where I didn't have to worry about the exchange rate. And let my comment stand for posterity's sake, because I can fully utilize a thesaurus. :)

But on second thought, given that I used soil, it would mostly be land. Though potted plants have soil in them and they definitely aren't considered land! My remark is in contrast to the phrase "foreign soil". I'm tired and sometimes the comments are worded the best at times like these.

While I understand what you're saying, I don't quite agree with your sentiment. I lived overseas for the last three years in Germany, and while it was great, I still like being on home soil so to speak.

I have to concede that I've never lived overseas, so your feelings may be quite correct. I'm just too frustrated with the U.S. right now to feel much good about my country. I do wish the U.S. would keep its nose out of other countries' affairs as long as they're not threatening our way of life. You know what I mean?

While I understand what you're saying, I don't quite agree with your sentiment. I lived overseas for the last three years in Germany, and while it was great, I still like being on home soil so to speak.

I think there is a great deal of HomeTurf ^tm going on there. I live in the UK for a year, and god know there's less crime, better public transport, cheaper telecommunications, more of everything available, BUT - South Africa still feels like home. I went back on business a couple of months ago, and I knew that coming back was the right decision. You can't help but know and love the land you grew up in.

LisaG, I completely know what you mean. I was in Germany for 3 years and just before that I had a 137 day stint in a capital that rhymes with Jaghdad. Our job would be easier if war didn't exist, I'll tell you that.

Our job would be easier if war didn't exist, I'll tell you that.

No doubt about that.

Hi Unathi - Welcome to Newsvine : )

How goes the testing program? What does the opposition do to discourage it?

lol, yes, Newsvine appreciates firsthand citizen reporting!

Although the prospects for being hired help to KwaZulu Natal are remote perhaps a Newsvine press pass could get you in for a firsthand observation of the fine job performed by the inspection team.

You do realize that this is another culture, right? With it's own traditions. Don't use 'western' standards to judge them so quickly or harshly. For all you or I know those 'girls' may think less of Western girls for not going through 'testing'.

I don't know what or if they do anything regarding the boys. How would you test?

Why can't people use "Western" standards to criticize the practices of another culture? What is wrong with that? I don't think I could possibly use any other standards to criticize anything given my cultural upbringing. So should we not criticize female genital mutilation, suicide bombings, or the practice of stoning women who dishonor their families? How about the belief in some African communities that sleeping with virgins will cure you of the AIDS virus? Is criticism off the table because we don't "get it" from other cultural perspectives?

Did you miss the part that I said..... "to judge them so quickly or harshly"?

Did you hear me condone violent acts of any sort?

".....genital mutilation, suicide bombings, or the practice of stoning women..."

Are you putting a traditional social and cultural practice on the same level as butchery and murder? Do you have some reason to think the girls and their families object to the tradition?

"Moral obligations constitute a law for nations as well as individuals." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to New York Tammany Society, 1808.

....genital mutilation, suicide bombings, or the practice of stoning women..."

Are you putting a traditional social and cultural practice on the same level as butchery and murder?

Those things are traditional social and cultural practices, should we not judge them harshly because of that?

Would we in the West accept another culture, say, Islam, judging our values and trying to change us?

Dubbya R-

No, you missed my point. Where did I say you condoned any form of violence? I was making this point: many cultural practices are wrong by most people's standards (murder, honor killings, etc.). In all judgments, our culture influences us. So to say that we shouldn't be "harsh" or "quick" to judge any practice because it is not of our culture suggests that you think that we are incapable of making fair criticisms of other cultural practices. Why shouldn't we make quick and harsh criticisms of things that standout as unjust or morally corrupt?

Yes, many other cultures criticize us. And? Why not? Some of what they say is right.

One who doesn't pass the virginity test in that tribe is an absolute outcast, and as one woman from the tribe expressed, being a non virgin is as good as being dead. You think it's fair to ostracize a woman based on an imprecise virginity test? Do we need to be of that culture to make that judgment call?

Talk to any gynecologist and you will find that no one can determine virginity without looking for the hymen, which is often torn already by the time a girl reaches 16 (from physical activity or other). Unless they have had genital mutilation, it is not fail proof to tell who is and who isn't.

Why are some people so sensitive about criticizing cultural practices? There are many hideous cultural practices that ought to be criticized and ultimately changed for the sake of the people within that culture that may be too immersed to realize it. Since we are not immersed in the culture, we have extremely relevant criticisms to offer.

wheel-

I don't remember hearing that suicide bombing was a 'traditional cultural or social practice' anywhere. As for the brutal practices used to repress women, they are repellant, anywhere at anytime, under any conditions, under the guise of any excuse. But do we have the 'self-appointed' right to impose our laws and values from outside? Does that then give them the right to impose their values on us? At what point do we decide we are justified to intervene? At the point when there is violence involved? If a culture keeps women in slave-like conditions without violence, are we morally justified to step in?

The West and it's predominant religions have been rash in judgements and actions too often, and I think we and they, are better served understanding a culture better before we leap in as well-meaning 'rescuers'.

Celestina-

Yup.....very interesting and thought-provoking article!

And by "ought to be changed" I mean from within, not by outside forces. But criticism won't hurt.

"Stepping in" is very different from discussing it. We are simply discussing it. Everyone has been rash in judgments too often, our culture and others. Perhaps you are not so against the exchange of criticisms, but you are against people from outside reforming someone else's culture based on cultural value judgments...is that it? Well, heck, I agree with that, but we're not doing that here. And I don't think my entire argument is based on value judgments. Rather, I have a problem with the ostracism a woman is condemned to and the accuracy of this virginity test. My cultural perspective pops in when I make my last argument about controlling women...it is that, and it isn't fair. But should we jump in and change that? No. Those women will change their society when they're ready.

jesingray-

"....i'm just so disgusted." from #26

That's what I was responding to.

" as one woman from the tribe expressed, being a non virgin is as good as being dead."

I don't know where this comes from, it wasn't in the story, I checked. If it comes from the 'comment' section below the story, then I can't respond to it because the commenter's are not identified, and therefore may be truthful or not.

I am quite well aware of human biology, and the potential for innacuracy in judging a non-intact hymen as proof of not being a virgin. If the testing was being done in this country, I'd raise hell.

The information in this story is not complete. A knee-jerk response of 'disgust' without hearing all sides from those directly affected....is hasty and judgmental.

I have read about this practice elsewhere and can't find the quote for you, so I guess that point is moot. But here's another article that touches on the effects of stigmatization:

http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=22451%20

If there was no stigma and/or the tests were accurate, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the practice. AIDS testing via blood would be much more beneficial in determining who has AIDS or not, though I don't know the level of access that the Zulu's have to such testing.

jesingray-

"If there was no stigma and/or the tests were accurate, I wouldn't have much of a problem with the practice."

I agree, and I think we are basically in agreement on all this. This would have debatable use for aids testing; blood is the way to go. As for aids prevention I don't know if it would help any....for it to help, they would also need to find a way to apply a standard to the boys as well, for both testing and social practice/prohibition.....otherwise the young men will just bring the disease with them and infect a virgin bride.

jesingray, I mostly agree with the main points that you and Dubbya R make. My response to your link is much like yours too - if the reason for the virginity testing is to curb HIV, then rather give them the same blood tests that the boys have to undergo.

I think this is an attempt to give a modern edge to legitimise a cultural practice.