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CELESTINA

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SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
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No Such Thing As False Hope

Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:59 AM EST
us-news, obama, election, democrat, clinton, voting, primary, hope, super-tuesday, democratic-primary
By Celestina

Just look at that crowd...
Photo by roxannejomitchell's photos, Creative Commons.

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I spent much of yesterday writing a carefully researched and documented essay comparing Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, with the aim of demonstrating why the former was a better choice for President than the latter. As it sat this evening in not-quite-done mode on my laptop, my ten-year-old son crawled into my lap and asked me what I was working on. We talked a little about current politics, and the Presidential primaries, and somehow in the conversation it was mentioned that Senator Clinton had urged the citizens of this nation not to indulge in false hopes by voting for such an "inexperienced" candidate as Senator Obama. To which my son replied

There are no false hopes. We need all the hope we can get. We have been living in a cultural dark ages, and it's time we crawled out of it.

Seeing the terribly serious look on my son's face as he said this sent shivers up my spine and reminded me what all the politics is really for. We are fighting these battles not for ourselves, to see our own ideas writ large across the face of this country, but for our children and our neighbors and all the people with whom we don't agree. We all want to feel safe in our homes, we all want to believe that justice can once again be a word whose meaning we all understand. We all want our children to be fed and cared for, and we all want our elders to be able to retire with dignity. We all want clean air and clean water, and we all want each person to have an equal opportunity to make their mark on the world. We all need a release from the fear and the cynicism and the paralyzing sensation of helplessness which has become an inherent and accepted tradition among American citizens. We are all fighting so hard because we care so much, and in the end we care about the same things. We need to believe once more that perhaps there is something valuable our nation has to offer. That we can overcome our surface differences, our disparate religions and political parties and notions of what solutions will provide the best way forward to recognize that we are all, in the end, looking for the same thing: America.

It's not a false hope to say that perhaps we can find a way forward. It's not a false hope to say we can talk to each other and take the best parts from every system of belief and meld them into a new whole which may be greater than its various parts. We would be fools to let the cynics dictate our future. If all you ever have are small dreams, then the best you can ever achieve is a small vision, not much greater than where you started. But with big dreams, the dreams that have lain dormant in the hearts and minds of every person in this nation as we felt our country spinning farther and farther away from its original promise, every step we take forward is one piece in a much greater whole. We are at a juncture where only big dreams and the courage to hope will spark real change.

The quality that Barack Obama has which Hillary Clinton will never share is the ability to inspire. The President of the United States does not make the laws. He cannot enforce justice or ensure that our babies are born safely or promise care for our elderly. But what he can do, must do, is be the inspiration to others to try harder, work together, to make change happen. He must be a force which people want to follow, who gives us a reason to believe. Listening to people talk about Obama, reading the editorials, the bloggers, and even those who have come forward to endorse him, it is clear that not only do they want him for President: they believe in him. In Obama they see not a single man, they see a movement in which we are all a part, a slowly swelling tidal wave which can sweep over this nation and perhaps create something greater than any individual could ever accomplish.

Think, for just a moment, of the potential in that belief, of the power of a nation which could once again see past the divisive politics of the last seven years. And then please, when you close that little curtain and cast your vote, have the courage to hope.

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  • Public Discussion (95)
Celestina

The more fact-y article is still coming, I promise. But I realized that in the end, this is the part which really matters. Props to my kid for his moment of brilliance.

  • 17 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:10 PM EST
Mykola Bilokonsky

Interesting. I have been trying really hard to believe that such things don't matter - I get swayed by Obama's rhetoric as much as the next guy. He's a very effective speaker.

But he's still a part of the establishment and by definition can't be the agent of change, can he? I mean pretty words are well and good, but in the end what do they mean? I'd rather we had a candidate who inspired hope not through words but through revolutionary action.

  • 13 votes
#1.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:18 PM EST
Celestina

Well, but that's the thing I realized, Myk...if people believe in him, really believe, then those people are suddenly inspired to try. He's establishment, yeah, but he is also leaning in the direction I would like to see things go, and he makes people want to work together toward those ends, which is a pretty amazing feat at this point. To me, it's not so much the man (I agree with some of his policies, disagree with others), but what I see him creating which is impressive. Granted, if he shared Huckabee's platform I would be scared to death.

  • 12 votes
#1.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:26 PM EST
azsky13

That is one very smart kid! Great wisdom can often come from unexpected sources. I offer kudos to the kid and to the parents who raised him...

You have given me much to think about. I am at this point undecided. I was trying to clarify my thoughts in my own article, but it isn't going well. I think it will ultimately come down to whether I follow my heart or my head. My heart wants to believe, but my head is cynical...

I look forward to the fact-y article.

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:30 PM EST
QACoach

But he's still a part of the establishment and by definition can't be the agent of change, can he?

Myk...I once believed as this. I spent many years in the late '60s an 70's trying to change the "system". The one thing that gave me a new perspective was a vision I had during a meditation. In that vision, I could see the whole world, except for me, on the other side of a very thick glass panel. The panel was very unique in that I could hear the rest of the world talking, laughing, doing whatever they were doing. However, as I beat my fists on the glass panel to get their attention to tell them how screwed up they were, people on the other side could neither see nor hear me. So I started yelling louder and beating the glass with more force. Still nothing!

Finally, I calmed down...began to realize that I was getting a very powerful lesson. As I looked through that glass panel, I could see people interacting with each other, and I immediately knew that, for me, this meant that to influence the system, I had to be "in the system"...not one with it, but in it.

This belief coincides with a Christian belief that goes something like, "Be in this world, but not of it.". (My apologies to Bible scholars who will no doubt find that I misquoted to a degree.)

So...that is why I have decided to support Obama. I believe that he had to be "in the system" to be able to effect change. He may be so close sometimes that he (or anyone) may miss some of the details, but that is why we are here...to remind him. I believe that he listens. I believe that he is genuine in his desire to create a better US and world.

Am I naive? Maybe...But this goes to the core of the Obama campaign. Do I have faith in the guy? My answer is yes!

  • 18 votes
#1.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 1:54 PM EST
spiffie

But he's still a part of the establishment and by definition can't be the agent of change, can he?

I don't see why not. Absent true revolution, every significant change in American history has required insiders willing to make structural changes via the machinery of government. Hillary wasn't exactly wrong to say that LBJ was instrumental in getting new civil rights legislation passed, and he was the consummate insider. FDR introduced social security, but he was surely as much, or more, a political operative than LBJ.

Insiders can get @!$%# done, too.

  • 9 votes
#1.5 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 3:00 PM EST
Eric AlbertDeleted
vas

But he's still a part of the establishment and by definition can't be the agent of change, can he?

Man, everyone who lives in the U.S. is part of the establishment to many people of other countries. We are the haves, by circumstance of birth. Do we have to renounce our citizenship and move to a third world country to be an agent of change against U.S. hegemony? Not saying I know the answer... just that's it's not a simple issue.

  • 12 votes
#1.7 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:04 PM EST
Brenda Mayer

This is great, as usual, Celestina. I had a hard time articulating the reasons for my preference for Obama over Clinton and you have summed it up.

off topic:

Thanks for your great response to me re: gifted children. I haven't had a chance to thank you yet due to unrelated garbage, but I do appreciate it!

  • 4 votes
#1.8 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:54 PM EST
Celestina

Thanks, Brenda. Glad if this article was helpful at all.

As to gifted children, I am just glad I didn't scare you off by being too preachy or something. *smile* I have often been warned that my tendency to lecture can be off-putting, and you asked about one of the topics on which I feel the most strongly. If I can ever be of any help, even just as a sounding board (I really can shut up, I promise), I am always here.

  • 3 votes
#1.9 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:00 PM EST
cleaving2

I find myself really confused and a bit annoyed by all of this portraying Obama as full of sound and fury with no real significance, and as someone who doesn't have what it takes to be president, or to bring change to an overly determined governance structure. The power to move people with your presentation of ideas that elicits the experience of affect is very very important. Of course the limit to affect's potential vis-a-vis politics is in just how it comes to be symbolize in sentiment and action, but here we have new possibilities as well. Obama is consistent in his insistence that we can come together in new ways and forming new patterns of action than we have before.

What intrigues me about his candidacy is precisely the kinds of conversations I hear happening on the public bus, or in Kmart customer service lines, or in check advance lobbies. People are talking with one another about voting and more... about what particular candidates offer them, about the "end of a dynasty" (a phrase that was use to describe the bush and clinton families, and that had the sense -- later corroborated by someone -- but that seemed to speak to a greater dynasty, one of racial supremacy)...

i'll give your comments more thought and jump back in down the line. . .

thanks...

  • 3 votes
#1.10 - Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:48 PM EST
Reply
Jared Kardos

Daaaamn. That's one smart kid. Hell, at 10 years old, I spent most of my days waiting for the next Batman cartoon. Now that I think about it, that's still all I do. :O

Seriously, while he's made some mistakes--getting into slap-fights with Hilary, only voting "present" in his records, hiring homophobic preachers during his tour in the south--he's STILL got a lot more going for him than Hilary.

My only problem is that, while optimism and calls for change are great and refreshing, I would like some substantial, concrete ideas of HOW he's going to affect these changes. Hopefully if he gets the nomination he'll start getting into that.

Great article, m'dear. Again, your kid is hella bright. Let him have a cookie on me. :D

  • 7 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 12:33 PM EST
Celestina

*chuckle* Yeah, the kid is...something else.

In some areas Obama does have really solid plans, for example his Technology Plan is quite exhaustive in its detailing of all the many ways technology impacts our society, and how we can address many of our concerns by reforming the way the government utilizes it, the corporations provide and implement it, and the people utilize it. I was impressed. I really wish he would present plans as comprehensive as this for all aspects of his platform.

  • 6 votes
#2.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:28 PM EST
Reply
Orlando Dozier

Celestina,

I did pretty much the same thing this weekend and also (finally) reached the same conclusion. I plan on posting an article explaining some of my thought process, but in the end, I agree Obama is the best choice. I still like Hillary for a lot of things, but Obama has build a wave of change that just might sweep a lot of the old guard out of DC and I have to be on board with that. In the morning I will happily vote for Obama and change.

  • 11 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 1:35 PM EST
Celestina

Orlando!! You switched! Now we can really have a party when Obama takes the nomination! *grin* I am looking forward to reading your article.

  • 7 votes
#3.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:30 PM EST
Reply
batmanchesterDeleted
Bill Harrison

You guys are going to be really disappointed if the latest in a series of "change" candidates gets elected for the reasons I already outlined. Obama may make a fine president, if elected, but I have a feeling if he does it will be for the exact opposite of reasons many find him so appealing now.

  • 4 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 2:35 PM EST
Celestina

Hey, Bill. Read your article, and it was really well-written and interesting. And...you may be right. But I'm not ready to accept that, yet. If nothing else, more people are caring about this election right now than they have any election in my adult years, and that gives me a lot of hope. If people care, there is always a chance that things could really change.
Meet me for a cup of tea in a few years so one of us can laugh at the other?

  • 8 votes
#5.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:34 PM EST
Bill Harrison

C, it's not about more people "caring" and here the comparisons to Kennedy are particularly not apt. Kennedy's place in history is rightly seen as at the tail end of the great postwar consensus that governed the US on a bipartisan basis from WII until Vietnam. There was no great cry for "change" in the country in 1960 and Kennedy won a very narrow victory over Nixon. What people remember about Jack Kennedy are the Peace Corps and the space program and tend to forget the fact that his government tacitly approved the murder of SVN president Diem, carried out the disastrous Bay of Pigs operation (begun under Eisenhower) which later led to the Cuban missile crisis and wiretapped MLKJr. Great systemic changes are not made on the backs of narrow majorities (or in Kennedy's case) pluralities. As I said, Obama if elected, will have a chance to really make substantive changes only if his party wins overwhelming majorities in the Congress or lacking that if he is able to canoodle and cajole together a Congressional mandate for his programs. This will inevitably involve some horse trading that's bound to upset a lot of his young true believers.

  • 5 votes
#5.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:30 PM EST
ombra

Kennedy may not have been the greatest president when everything is totaled up, but there was one thing he did better than any others since. He made us feel good about ourselves. He made us want to be better than what we are. He made us believe.

Maybe that's enough for a start with Obama. I don't expect great miracles, but if it's a choice between no hope, and a chance of a hope, I'd rather roll the dice.

  • 10 votes
#5.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:43 PM EST
Viki Babbles Gonia

if it's a choice between no hope, and a chance of a hope, I'd rather roll the dice.

I'm rolling! I'm rolling!

  • 6 votes
#5.4 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:27 AM EST
lhornung

This is a friend of mine, Danny Flanigan. Don't know if he's an Obama fan or not, but he wrote this beautiful song called "Hope is a Word."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EgEPdIL3EM

  • 2 votes
#5.5 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 12:00 PM EST
vas

if it's a choice between no hope, and a chance of a hope, I'd rather roll the dice.

I'm rolling! I'm rolling!

I'm not just rolling. I've put money down. Not that $2,300 bucks even compares to the risk of picking a bad president and the potential cost to millions or billions of people.

  • 7 votes
#5.6 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:36 PM EST
vas

And this is the first time in many, many elections that I've been inspired enough to do more than just vote. It's really nice to vote for someone rather than against someone for a change.

  • 8 votes
#5.7 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:55 PM EST
Bill Harrison

ombra

He made us feel good about ourselves. He made us want to be better than what we are. He made us believe.

Well, that's real nice but try "hoping" in one hand and spitting in the other and see which one you get first.

To get this nomination Obama's going to have to do a lot better with Latinos and white voters of lesser economic station than he's done so far. Blacks and yuppie whites and their parents aren't going to cut it. Hillary's got Gerry McEntee's AFSCME in her back pocket and the teachers unions. And while the SEIU local endorsed Obama in NV it didn't help him win the caucuses as the Latino membership ignored it and went with Hillary.

  • 1 vote
#5.8 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 9:57 PM EST
Viki Babbles Gonia

It's really nice to vote for someone rather than against someone for a change.

Isn't it?

It makes me feel...

HOPEFUL.

  • 5 votes
#5.9 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:34 AM EST
Reply
Dr Know

The difference between a child and an adult is the way of thinking. Children think magically. Adults do not. There is truly a thing as false hope. The trick is to find the hope that has a possibility then cling to it. Attaching oneself to a false hope can be more damaging than not having one and facing reality.

  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 2:55 PM EST
Celestina

Children think magically. Adults do not.

Er...well...*blush*. Ahem, what if we agree that most adults do not and that all adults have more experience under their belts to use in their evaluations? I mean, at this point I know that I cannot reasonably expect other adults to believe that I am the tragically misplaced Faerie Queen (got that from experience), but I still believe that I am.

The trick is to find the hope that has a possibility then cling to it

I understand what you are saying, but I also think that sometimes hope becomes a self-fulfilling thing, if cherished and nurtured enough. Sometimes all it takes is really being able to believe that a thing could happen, in order to have the confidence to pursue it.

  • 9 votes
#6.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:40 PM EST
Dr Know

Have you seen the "American Idol" auditions? 100,000 came with hope. The vast majority was false. Some adamantly believing.

  • 4 votes
#6.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:04 PM EST
Celestina

Have you seen the "American Idol" auditions?

Heh...no, I really try to safeguard my faith in humanity, so I avoid that sort of thing. I get your point, though. *smile*

  • 4 votes
#6.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:21 PM EST
David Mc Girr

I know that I cannot reasonably expect other adults to believe that I am the tragically misplaced Faerie Queen

I believe. Hell, I believe it more than you do.

And for the record, you kid terrifies me. All I did at age ten was read the dictionary.

-Dave

  • 3 votes
#6.4 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:32 PM EST
Celestina

Ah, well, Dave you are the exception, but then you are my cosmic twin, so one would expect you to have some additional insight into these things.
As to the kid, he terrifies a lot of people. *smile* It amuses me quite a bit.
And I still read the dictionary....;)

  • 4 votes
#6.5 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 3:59 PM EST
David Mc Girr

He plays chess though. I want a game.
I'm so sick of playing people who suck at chess.
Can he pick horses too?

-Dave

  • 2 votes
#6.6 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 5:20 PM EST
Reply
firsty

i had hope that the democrats and progressives of the united states would finally stop voting against their own interests and show some interest in dennis kucinich. that kind of hope in america is false hope. obama and clinton are only different in the shower.

  • 6 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:16 PM EST
Celestina

It would have been nice if Kucinich could have gotten a fair shake. Hell, even if he didn't win, he kept the whole race more honest.

obama and clinton are only different in the shower.

Well, I hope you're wrong, but I reckon we will soon find out.

  • 6 votes
#7.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:42 PM EST
firsty

Hell, even if he didn't win, he kept the whole race more honest.

not by much. both candidates did what they needed to do to keep him out of the debates.

this has now devolved to an image campaign. both candidates have sufficient corporate funds to render any real change impossible. neither is brave enough to handle the war, health care, or the economy with anything approaching honesty. 2008 will bring, perhaps, a different party to the white house. i expect that party to act with the same cowardice displayed by the democrats after the 2006 elections.

in 2009, america will be in even more of a dire need of a revolution than it needs today, because it will have crushed any hope for change in the post-bush era. i've gone over both websites and they are both short on solutions and big on rhetoric. i am only expecting exactly what they are offering, and we still havent seen the republican bull@!$%# machine as it will become once the democratic opponent has been decided upon.

i had hope in 2004. it was dashed by the sheer stupidity of the american voter. i had hope in 2006. it was dashed by the sheer worthlessness of the spineless hacks in congress.

i've seen enough of the bull@!$%# machine already in action here at newsvine to have any hope for 2008. there are more than enough morons with voting cards here in the u s of a to make me feel anything but cynicism.

lets see clinton or obama start actually doing something in their existing roles as senators to correct things like having a torturer run the DOJ or war criminals in the administration or even simple stuff like the FCC allowing big business to completely take over even local media (it took its first step towards that end during the clinton administration). the very fact that those issues would probably "turn off" a significant portion of voters is proof that as long as this electoral process is in place, we will never have anything close to valid leadership.

  • 6 votes
#7.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:01 PM EST
Eric AlbertDeleted
Reply
Djehuty

This makes a fine counterpoint to your story on the delegates system. I hope not in an ironic way!

Elections are full of false promises, and part of the reason democracy is so screwed in the west is that politicians have to become beholden to vested interests within their parties and in securing donations in order to be elected. What we always hope for is a candidate without too many entanglements who will damn the torpedoes and do what's right once in office. I hope Obama is that person. His visions seem to be genuinely his rather than those of his pollsters and strategists.

  • 8 votes
Reply#8 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:30 PM EST
Celestina

This makes a fine counterpoint to your story on the delegates system.

*chuckle* You caught that, eh? Well, they're both true: Obama is inspiring many people in a way that I find inspiring and I won't get to vote for him unless he gets the nomination (which pisses me off) and I'm not even sure how much of a difference it makes, given the machines and super-delegate system (which pisses me off even more).
So, hell, I do what I can, which in this case means writing out my thoughts in the hopes that maybe it will somehow make a difference. *smile*

I hope Obama is that person.

Me, too. There are a lot of people gambling on that, right now. He's heard their message enough to know what they need to hear, hopefully he won't forget it when he gets into office.

  • 8 votes
#8.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 4:50 PM EST
Dan Charles

Per a recent article in Time and stories on NPR, don't give up on the super-delegates. Obama had a solid share (not as many Hillary obviously) going into last week, and many of the super-delegates are starting to swing O's way (Caroline K. and Ted K. endorsements have helped sway a lot of folks in the party) including many people who were originally leaning toward Hillary.

Tomorrow looks like our household will cancel each other out - my wife is going Hillary and I will be going Obama. If I think the race will be close, I may have to knee cap my lovely and keep her from voting.

  • 5 votes
#8.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:49 PM EST
Reply
ravenson

It's a great article, well written and thoughtful, but naive. Hope is a good thing and it can inspire great ideas, but hope does not bring those ideas to completion. Washington is a place of well-entrenched processes that will continue to be in play long after the election is over. I'm not saying that is a good thing thing, I'm saying that to think that anyone can move into the presidency, and change the way it works, is being unrealistic. In politics, you win by playing with the established rules, using tried and true networks to build alliances, and by realizing that everyone has an agenda of their own. Regardless of the political hype, and the starry-eyed folks running around with their hats and banners, once the confetti has been swept up, Washington movers and shakers will go back to moving and shaking in the the ways they are comfortable with. The president who will make the greatest change, is not the one with the biggest hopes, or the one who promised the most sweeping changes, it is the one who knows best how to navigate the complex currents of the national political river, and having an established network in place will help tremendously.

  • 4 votes
Reply#9 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:07 PM EST
Bill Harrison

Bingo!!

  • 1 vote
#9.1 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:04 PM EST
Djehuty

Washington movers and shakers will go back to moving and shaking in the the ways they are comfortable with. The president who will make the greatest change, is not the one with the biggest hopes, or the one who promised the most sweeping changes, it is the one who knows best how to navigate the complex currents of the national political river

That's largely true, and it ties in with Blaise's article saying: don't elect an idealist. But it misses something really important. The President is in a position to frame the debate. Without achieving any of his policy and in the face of a hostile congress he can change national priorities and make the nation approach things in a different way.

The saddest thing about the GBW presidency is that it made the nation spend 8 years with two priorities only: fear and money. That's what I hope for Obama to change. That's why the "vision thing" matters.

  • 9 votes
#9.2 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:12 PM EST
Tamh

You bugger!!! You got in first after our conversation regarding above comments! I poke my tongue at you! ;P

But I agree.

  • 6 votes
#9.3 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:14 PM EST
Djehuty

Sorry *smile*

  • 3 votes
#9.4 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 10:24 PM EST
Tamh

S'ok, of course! :o)

  • 5 votes
#9.5 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:14 AM EST
ravenson

The President is in a position to frame the debate.

This is true, but...

Without achieving any of his policy and in the face of a hostile congress he can change national priorities and make the nation approach things in a different way.

while a new approach is needed, an effective follow-through is also required to accomplish anything. Not achieving his policy will only render him a philosophical martyr.

  • 3 votes
#9.6 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:45 PM EST
Raat ki Raani

our conversation regarding above

full of mystery and intrigue

what she said

  • 3 votes
#9.7 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:57 PM EST
Djehuty

ravenson

while a new approach is needed, an effective follow-through is also required to accomplish anything. Not achieving his policy will only render him a philosophical martyr.

I don't think this is always true. Take Bush on "security". Much of his assault on human rights and freedom in this country went unchallenged because the neocons were able to frame the debate and the Democrats were spineless slime moulds who disgraced themselves. Ok so I'm still a little upset. But imagine if a Republican dominated congress were trying to bring in that regressive legislation and the President had been sending it back, saying: "This takes away from what it means to be the USA. This is capitulates to the terrorists' attack on our values. Freedom takes courage, and we must find a way to be secure without becoming what we hate." Even without a veto that would have changed the way the Patriot Act was discussed, and forced the neocons on the back foot.

  • 6 votes
#9.8 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:03 PM EST
Bill Harrison

I would be willing to wager $100 right here and now that if elected Obama does away with very few of the national security provisions enacted in the past seven years with the exception of rejiggering FISA.

We'll do it just like my wager with Killfile on Bush bombing Iran. If you win, I donate $100 to the cause of your choice. If I win, you buy $100 worth of shares in "Big Oil" or a MIC company.

  • 3 votes
#9.9 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:00 PM EST
Djehuty

I didn't say he would, Bill, I used a hypothetical situation (a sort of anti-Bush) as an example. At this point Super Tuesday's not looking good for Obama, either. I also used the opportunity to grandstand about the sad disaster of US reaction to 9/11. You know how it is, we all succumb to that temptation now and again.

  • 5 votes
#9.10 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:17 PM EST
Celestina

OK, wait...if Obama wins the Presidency, what, exactly, are we talking about? Does the warrantless wiretapping fall under FISA "rejiggering"? Let's define this bet a bit.

  • 2 votes
#9.11 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:20 PM EST
Bill Harrison

It's too late to get into that tonight but even the old FISA statute allowed for "warrantless" wiretapping for 72 hrs.

  • 1 vote
#9.12 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:09 PM EST
Celestina

Yeah, but we both know that wasn't the same as the warrantless wiretapping in which President Bush engaged (which totally eschewed such standards). So, whenever you're ready, flesh out your bet, and we'll talk. :)

  • 3 votes
#9.13 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:26 PM EST
Reply
Forest Browne

I like it, and love my children, but alas the only thing that helps me is to have a historical perspective on the subject. No matter how much we make a big deal of things, they are in construct all parts of our historical progress. That means whether we are making real progress under a progressive administration, or a pull back under a conservative one, we still seem to learn and get better. Not long ago in the reality of things gays had so few rights it was breathtaking, today those rights are slowly becoming guaranteed. In fact and more importantly we see in our children the shock that people would even bring them up. My mother was just plain scared of African Americans and my father epitomized the idea of duty and honor when it came to public service and conservative values.

Things change, and have been changing for the better for the most part. We learned from Vietnam, then forgot. I'll bet we remember the next time, and in the mean time we get smarter and older as a civilization until slowly and inexordinately move closer to a world we really all want to live in. In your last article you ranted about the electoral system we have, the thing to understand is that these were created when only 3% of the population could even read. The system has seemed archaic and inane to many and when it's time finally comes we will rid ourselves of it.

Have a good one,

Forest

  • 7 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 5:38 PM EST
Celestina

Thank you, Forest, for that. You are right, in the longer view we have made steady progress, and the world will not end based on this election or any one thing. *smile* Sometimes I totally need someone to remind me. You're wonderful.

  • 6 votes
#10.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:04 AM EST
Reply
Aunk (The Cultural Health Guy)

Hetep and Respect CELESTINA, Your boy and my boy are on point and they will change America.

There are no false hopes. We need all the hope we can get. We have been living in a cultural dark ages, and it's time we crawled out of it.

Your son is so right. My youngest boy is a little older then yours, 29, LoL I was a Kucinich man and would not have given you a plug nickel for Obama's chances. My boy Aunk II was the first to say to me, " with respect dad you elders are calling this one wrong". More or less he pointed out that the youth do not operate out of the same cultural box's of their elders.

It is interesting how often I am hearing how young people are changing the minds of old school. Something is happening in America.

OK, you youngo heads America is catching on.


I am Fired uP and Ready to GO!

  • 7 votes
Reply#11 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 6:31 PM EST
Celestina

My boy Aunk II was the first to say to me, " with respect dad you elders are calling this one wrong".

*chuckle* That's awesome.
It's really important that we actually listen to our kids (no matter what their age), rather than just dismiss them with "I felt that way, too, at your age." Do you remember being told that as a kid, how furious and frustrated it made you? And what a loss for us, if we do that. As we age we get too inured to compromise, and sometimes we really need out kids to set us straight.
Thanks so much for commenting, Aunk!

  • 5 votes
#11.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:01 AM EST
Reply
Pamela Drew

The other day someone suggested that voters should have to get a college degree, after reading this I think we might do better to let it fall into the hands of kids from eight to twelve. Wonderful article and nice to see that we adults might not see the forest for the trees but our kiddies can show us if we have the sense to listen!

  • 7 votes
Reply#12 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:06 PM EST
Celestina

Thanks, Pamela. And yeah, we have a lot to be grateful for in having our kids to keep us on the right track. *grin*

  • 3 votes
#12.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:57 AM EST
Cassandra

we have a lot to be grateful for in having our kids to keep us on the right track.

Surely has always worked for me!

Congrats, C., and my love to Caedmon. Tell him he will end up a philosopher like his granddad.

  • 2 votes
#12.2 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:12 PM EST
Celestina

Did I mention to everyone that the person who demonstrated to me how much it matters to listen to your children was my Mom? How much it matters when you both respect the hell out of each other, whether or not you end up agreeing?

Tell him he will end up a philosopher like his granddad.

*chuckle* You know he has greater ambitions. He is going to be Overlord, and the best we can hope for is to be on his good side.

  • 6 votes
#12.3 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:28 PM EST
Cassandra

Well, at least on the issue of this election, we have agreed right from the beginning.

And if Caedmon keeps following politics, by the time he is a little older, he will figure that being the Overlord will be way too much work for too little gain -- as long as he retains his present ethical scruples, anyway.

  • 2 votes
#12.4 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:46 PM EST
Reply
vas

Nice piece, C. I also wrote one a while back in response to Hillary's cynical, self-serving "false hope" attack: Hillary, Stop Attacking Hope. You're piece is much, much better than mine... but you might like the quotes I included from Dr. Cornell West. I have to rely on quotes being the lousy writer that I am :)

  • 6 votes
Reply#13 - Mon Feb 4, 2008 11:16 PM EST
Celestina

I think it's a great article, vas! I am so sorry I missed it when you first put it up. Thanks for the link.

  • 3 votes
#13.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:54 AM EST
Reply
rob from oakland, ca.Deleted
Sergey Necheporenko

Great article, Celistina. I wish your son all my best wishes. And I think you have a wonderful child.
It's extremely hard to live without hope, I think.

  • 4 votes
Reply#15 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:36 AM EST
Celestina

Thank you, Sergey.

  • 2 votes
#15.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:43 AM EST
Reply
Raat ki Raani

Celestina - children are much smarter than us adults as your son has proved here. The sheer simplicity yet telling logic of his comment says more for the inner voice that each and every one of us carry. We just need to give that an opportunity for release. Often, it is children who can help us 'complex, sophisticated adults' do that.

We are fighting these battles not for ourselves, to see our own ideas writ large across the face of this country, but for our children and our neighbors and all the people with whom we don't agree. We all want to feel safe in our homes, we all want to believe that justice can once again be a word whose meaning we all understand. We all want our children to be fed and cared for, and we all want our elders to be able to retire with dignity. We all want clean air and clean water, and we all want each person to have an equal opportunity to make their mark on the world.

So loved the way you have captured the essence of humanity in those few short lines. Agree - there is no such thing as false hope. Equally, there is nothing more powerful than faith. Faith in hope. Can never be extinguished. We just need to help each other keep that inner faith.

Thanks for doing your bit to help restore faith and hope. Thank your son.

  • 7 votes
Reply#16 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:19 AM EST
Celestina

Thank you, Raat. It's a strange thing, as an adult, that I know enough history and facts about the present that it would be easy to slide into a cushioning cynicism...but I choose not to. I can't see any damned use in it, aside from making sure I miss the good stuff even when it's happening. My son is a great aid, in that regard, not because he is particularly optimistic and sunny (he's not), but because often he is able to get me to rethink the core of any issue I am contemplating and see that there are ways to approach it that may be helpful, and ways that are harmful or useless.

Nowhere is this more useful than with politics. If we give up, if we accept that there can never be a candidate who will genuinely try to work for the people, or that even if there is they will not be able to accomplish it, then there is no reason at all try keep trying to change things...and the current system wins. I refuse to accept that. As long as there is any reason to hope, I will choose to keep hoping, and therefore to keep trying.

  • 5 votes
#16.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:39 AM EST
Raat ki Raani

what she said

yep. There is often more than one side to something, especially politics. It is very easy to slip into defensive mode when we sense we are facing conflict. In actual fact, there may not be any potential conflict but the moment we sense it, we bring up those defense systems. We allow them to cloud our vision. They become enablers for division between us and 'perceived' adversaries instead of facilitators for bridge building. Yet, deep down inside, both parties probably have a lot more in common than as differences. But the system gets kicked off and never the twain get a chance to meet.

We can never ever give up hope. One that we all share. Including politicians. In some ways, we owe the current crop of politicians (almost everywhere) a huge favour. Together, they have unwittingly opened up a Pandora's box in the common man. One where many of the masses have been forced to pose challenging questions. Of their leaders, of their society and communities. And most importantly, of themselves and their role in that system.

This medium is a great leveller as we know. It has helped to facilitate that process and enable more to share their commonalities. That gives us a collective voice. And feeds back into that inner faith. Nurtures hope. The cycle continues, much better enriched than before. It is actually happening everywhere one looks.

Just have to have faith that it is happening. And that it is working.

  • 4 votes
#16.2 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 11:21 AM EST
Reply
snwodttam

Your ten year old son said that?

Jeez, I'm gonna go kill myself. I never said anything so profound at 10 years old. And I'd bet that most folks who know me would attest that I've never said anything so profound since. :)

I'm sitting here on the eve of "Super Tuesday" hoping that America will choose a new face for itself. I'm sick of the 20 years of Clinton/Bush. But, deep down, I fear that come afternoon tomorrow (when I'll be checking on the results...Japan time) I'll be seeing more of the same.

Here's to hoping! :D

  • 5 votes
Reply#17 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 7:22 AM EST
Celestina

I'm sitting here on the eve of "Super Tuesday" hoping that America will choose a new face for itself. I'm sick of the 20 years of Clinton/Bush. But, deep down, I fear that come afternoon tomorrow (when I'll be checking on the results...Japan time) I'll be seeing more of the same.

Yeah, I hear you. I think a lot of people feel that way. But I'm gonna go ahead and hope, anyway. May as well. :)

  • 2 votes
#17.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:32 AM EST
Reply
TBone

Come November there will be at least one write-in vote for Celestina for POTUS.

  • 4 votes
Reply#18 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:57 AM EST
Celestina

Er...I really think I would be a far better speech-writer than President. *smile*

  • 5 votes
#18.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:30 AM EST
TBone

Your ten year old son said:

There are no false hopes. We need all the hope we can get. We have been living in a cultural dark ages, and it's time we crawled out of it.

And you raised him.

I always thought we needed a Nebraska farmer in The House. Now I'm thinking a Newsvine poet rancher would work better.

  • 4 votes
#18.2 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 8:54 PM EST
Reply
chill

I am "pretty much" avoiding US election pieces or offering my views, but I enjoyed this

  • 4 votes
Reply#19 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:17 AM EST
Celestina

Thanks, chill, I appreciate it.

  • 3 votes
#19.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:28 AM EST
Reply
Viki Babbles Gonia

I haven't felt hopeful about the direction my country is headed in a long, long time.

If hope serves to inspire me and others to make the changes they are capable of making, to pressure their elected officials to make the changes they can make, then there is nothing false about it.

Wonderful article, C. And I cannot WAIT to meet your son.

  • 5 votes
Reply#20 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:33 AM EST
Celestina

If hope serves to inspire me and others to make the changes they are capable of making, to pressure their elected officials to make the changes they can make, then there is nothing false about it.

Thank you, Viki. That is a fantastic summation.
And yeah...we have so got to get our kids together one of these days. They seem like they could be quite the dangerous pair!

  • 5 votes
#20.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 10:56 AM EST
Viki Babbles Gonia

quite the dangerous pair!

Hmmm...I might have to rethink this. ;)

  • 4 votes
#20.2 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:36 AM EST
Reply
Celestina

The more documented article is up, for anyone interested.
I am starting to feel like a one-woman cheering squad. It's not entirely comfortable (as I'm not a big fan of government, in general), but I do think this is important. I swear, I will write about something besides Obama, next. *smile*

  • 2 votes
Reply#21 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:07 PM EST
titseyDeleted
BrashMonkey

This is great, Celestina. Thank you for putting up your thoughts and getting a great conversation going. I feel that, in terms of national growth, we are on the verge of a shift. Perhaps a small shift or perhaps a big one, no matter which. In these times, we need to make sense of what is happening. We need to understand the context, and for those (most of us) attached to the status quo, we really, really need to know that the bridge we're about to step on goes somewhere. And it often helps to know what that bridge is made of, who made it, who had already walked it, etc. I see your article and the ensuing discussion as being part of the process: helping people to hash out what's going on around us. When that happens, we become less fearful of the change and begin to allow the momentum to sweep us up and carry us through the shift. Without that understanding, we often resist, and the opportunity for change dies out.

Myk questioned (way) above whether someone in the system can change the system. It is a valid concern, but I am not sure that is the right question to address. As Aunk said (#11), "[my son] pointed out that the youth do not operate out of the same cultural box's of their elders. It is interesting how often I am hearing how young people are changing the minds of old school. Something is happening in America. "

This is perennially true. Systems are always in flux, and it often comes from those not yet hiding behind layers of veils woven out of personal experience -- the children. If you think of social change as a 3-ring bullseye, with the status quo in the center and radicalism as the outside ring, the radical elements are always pushing and pushing to change the status quo. That stable center is always resisting. Between them is the transition. Perhaps Obama is in the center ring as part of the establishment, but he is partnered with and/or an ideological reflection of a youthful, radical energy that is motivating change. So...the question is not whether or not Obama can bring about change from his position. He is only one person. The question is whether or not the system is asking for a shift, and is that energy potent enough? Then it matters more whether or not Obama steps aside and lets it flow through or if he positions the government in its path, interrupting it.

Two final thoughts: "youthful energy" is not restricted to those of a certain biological age. Second, what was once radical is now status quo, and what is now radical may one day become status quo. While it is not inevitable that all radicalism creep to the center of the metaphoric bullseye, it is true that on a systemic scale, status quo will give way to radicalism. And it will always remain true that radicalism must also convince the status quo that there is a better way. I say that in hopes that it helps to think about this as part of a ceaseless dance, much bigger than the individual and much bigger than a single election or even a single generation.

  • 6 votes
Reply#23 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:16 PM EST
Celestina

I see your article and the ensuing discussion as being part of the process: helping people to hash out what's going on around us. When that happens, we become less fearful of the change and begin to allow the momentum to sweep us up and carry us through the shift. Without that understanding, we often resist, and the opportunity for change dies out.

Yes, I hope so. Whomever people decide to vote for, I just hope they vote for them out of some sense of conviction, rather than out of fear of what will happen if they don't.

The question is whether or not the system is asking for a shift, and is that energy potent enough? Then it matters more whether or not Obama steps aside and lets it flow through or if he positions the government in its path, interrupting it.

Yes, I completely agree, and much of the reason I am supporting this candidate is because he seems to respond to the needs and demands of the people, rather than saying we cannot comprehend what is possible.

I say that in hopes that it helps to think about this as part of a ceaseless dance, much bigger than the individual and much bigger than a single election or even a single generation.

Yes, and thank you for saying it. It is important to remember, as Forest pointed out above and as you do here, that whatever happens with this election there is still a trend toward change. It's important to care enough to fight for it, but it's also important to have perspective enough to realize that one election will not make or break us. We all contribute our part, and we are all changing our environment together. Hope is not a concept that Obama invented, it is one that already exists in all of us, just waiting for there to be a reason for it to exert its strength.

  • 7 votes
#23.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:57 PM EST
Reply
Andimia

Best argument I've read as to why to vote for a candidate.

  • 4 votes
Reply#24 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 5:10 PM EST
Celestina

Why thank you, Andimia. In this political climate, I take that as quite a compliment!

  • 4 votes
#24.1 - Tue Feb 5, 2008 6:40 PM EST
Reply
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Another great piece. Clipped to Newsviner's Picks.

  • 2 votes
Reply#25 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:40 PM EST
Celestina

Thanks, Scott!

  • 1 vote
#25.1 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:50 PM EST
Reply
Yuriy Bilokonsky

I think for most people "He's not Hillary" would suffice.

  • 4 votes
Reply#26 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 2:55 AM EST
ombra

Or he's not Clinton....

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton?, and what next, Jeb?

We have two "royal" families? Or can we only remember two names out of the millions of people living here?

  • 3 votes
#26.1 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 9:31 AM EST
Raat ki Raani

Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton?, and what next, Jeb?

Very likely, and Chelsea after! This dynasty has the potential to hold on to power for all our lifetimes. A chilling and very real prospect. The power is very deeply entrenched.

Only America can break the mould. But it can only happen in unity. Arise, America. Smell the coffee before it's too late!

  • 5 votes
#26.2 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 10:07 AM EST
Reply
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