Should We Freak Out About H.R. 1955?

I'm just not gonna comment on this one...they could be watching.

I'm just not gonna comment on this one...they could be watching.

Of course they are watching-- anyone who posts here may well end up in a Gulag-- or get waterboarded!

Oh wow, I guess I screwed up a link there and didn't notice it until far after the edit comment time was up. Try this:

Of course I'm against those laws, so I might as well be against this as well. The way I see it, is that a crime is a crime regardless of rhetoric or thoughts. If someone threatens the government or other Americans in such a way that it passes the clear and present danger test or inspires immanent lawlessness, then that is a crime regardless of whether the actions were terrorism inspired or racially inspired. Punish the crime not the thoughts.

At any rate, I agree with you about hate crime legislation, and while we're at it, I will throw in added penalties for substance abuse, as well.

Agreed. Though I'm not sure I agree with your specific example that seems to be against DUI laws.

Of course, intent is not exactly the same as "what were you thinking". I could kill someone, and whether I meant to or it was an accident does make a significant difference.

I also agree completely. But if you have intent, then the reason for the intent shouldn't matter. Whether you intended to murder someone for robbery, hate or terrorism shouldn't matter, only that you intended to do so.

If you want to write that article, I'd be more than glad to read it. My mind is not made up on the issue, but I haven't exactly heard any good reasons not to have DUI laws... So it depends on whether you want to thread jack your own article ;-)

me moving to Amsterdam....

I've always favored Finland a bit more... But if you want freedom, Iceland almost always rates pretty damn high in most areas, though it is Iceland.

Yeah, Iceland is pretty much the land of the free these days.

I've always favored Finland a bit more... But if you want freedom, Iceland almost always rates pretty damn high in most areas, though it is Iceland

Someone once told me something which-- I assume is true. That Iceland and Greenland should named the reverse-- Iceland isn't all that cold-- its climate isn't really so bad-- but Greenland is. Of the two-- Greenland is more icy-- Iceland is more green! (In any event from everything I've heard about Iceland it does seem like one of the better places to live).

krishna-167929, that is true. Much of Greenland is glacier while none of Iceland is that I know of. But from what I've heard, Iceland still doesn't have all that much of trees or forest. Very rocky and flat.

Someone once told me something which-- I assume is true. That Iceland and Greenland should named the reverse-- Iceland isn't all that cold-- its climate isn't really so bad-- but Greenland is. Of the two-- Greenland is more icy-- Iceland is more green! (In any event from everything I've heard about Iceland it does seem like one of the better places to live).

I was told in high school (or maybe it was jr. high) that this mis-naming was done on purpose to keep people from going to Iceland and make them think that going to Greenland was better.

It was probably lies, but it would be neat if it were true.

No, you heard right. The vikings did it intentionally to keep it "private" to them. At least that's what I have been taught

I wonder if that is one of those myths that just get told so often that they just become true, sorta.

it may very well be. who knows? sounds cool though

Oh ok, they're not Neo-Cons? then i'm sure this is nothing at all to worry about. You're right Bill, credit is FAR more important than civil liberties and our own protection from our Government.

There's nothing in this bill that could even be remotely construed as threatening to civil rights. Goodchristalmighty. Did you even bother to read it? Here's the CliffNotes version.

There's nothing in this bill that could even be remotely construed as threatening to civil rights.

Celestina did write:

This bill by itself does not outlaw anything, and does not provide any agency with new punitive powers. It does, however, lay out the foundation stones for a heightened paranoia and potentially a 21st century version of the Salem Witch Trials.

The bill itself does not directly threaten any civil rights, but it lays the foundation for future bills to do so.

Yeah I read it, just as clearly as you did. And those vague definitions give them plenty of room to stomp the rights of anybody they choose, as long as they hold a belief that can vaguely be considered "extremist thoughts" or a "radical agenda". I know as well as anybody that the bill itself doesn't change much, but when added to the patriot act it gives elected officials too much power over the citizenry. The Government serves us, it's not there to monitor us.

Yeah, right. The worst abuses of federal power with regard to surveillance of American citizens took place under the Kennedy and Nixon administrations when Hoover operated the FBI as his only little private fiefdom often with the collaboration or insistence of such good liberals as Bobby Kennedy, a thoroughly ruthless political operative. As former Chief Justice Robert Jackson once famously remarked in a dissent, "There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." This remains true today no matter how long and loud the Henny Pennys of the left and right cluck.

"Left, Right, Liberal, Conservative, Black, White" this game gets old.

This isn't about politics, or whatever team you chose, it's about us keeping our grip on our Government so that this nation remains a nation of the People. Wake up. the Bill of Rights can only be seen as a suicide pact to those who have interest in keeping our rights from us. Those people are the enemy, and have been for over 200 years.

your dream world does exist Bill.... in China.

Double Jeopardy round, let me have They did it 2 for $1000

Name two examples of criminal government to justify George Bush's ambissions.

What is quoting Bill Harrison...Yeah, right. The worst abuses of federal power with regard to surveillance of American citizens took place under the Kennedy and Nixon administrations when Hoover operated the FBI as his only little private fiefdom

That is correct, add $1,000 to your Jeopardy total, sponsored by Viagra.

If it doesn't effect civil liberties, why would you be surprised that Dems signed off on it?

Thanks for making my point for me. And learn the difference between "affect" and "effect".

I asked a question, I didn't make a point... learn the difference between a "point" and a "question"... or even the difference between "freedom" and "servitude".... or "human" and "cattle"... or the difference between an "argument" and "blah blah they did too!! democrats! democrats! 9/11!"

Zoe Lofgren

LOL. I don't know the other guy you mentioned-- but If she was a sponsor that says a lot.

Furthermore, if you combine the possible extent of these "hearings" with the extraordinary powers granted the current administration to pursue terrorists, it could be combined to allow "evidence" procured at these hearings to be used against internal "terrorists". It's not that it definitely will be used in such a way, it's that it could be.

Precisely. On the face of it, this law may not infringe on civil liberties, but the potential for abuse is there, especially when taken in context with the Patriot Act, Military Comissions Act and Warner Defense Initiative. Taken together, these various pieces of legislation equal COINTELPRO 2.0.

One more tool which has the potential for misuse by would-be authoritarians is not the direction this country needs to be moving in.

Celestina, I just don't see any parallels at all in this bill and the HUAC actions of the 1950s (which should not be confused with the Army-McCarthy hearings). What we're talking about here is the establishment of an independent commission just like the Civil Rights Commission and other such commissions on entitlement reform, etc. whose recommendations will not have force of law. This is a subject (what motivates people to take up violence after being alienated from their home country or country of residence) that needs studying outside of traditional law enforcement. It applies equally to the Tim McVeighs of the world as it does to the Jose Padillas.

The independent commission has grant making abilities.

Prohibited Uses- Funds provided as a grant may not be used--

`(1) for law enforcement activities, except for programs that include outreach activities;

see the article about Los Angeles locating muslim communities to "prevent radicalization" and calling it outreach. NY Times

Not to beat a dead horse but we must be mindful of further trampling of the First Amendment Rights, and imo, we have a real slippery slope here.

Agreed. This definitely isn't about left or right. This is more of a people vs the politicians/power brokers issue than anything else. I'm personally very concerned because i'm very involved with second amendment issues, firearms, etc and can quite easily see how this could be twisted to instantly turn me and many like me into supposed "terrorists" just for being a fan/supporter of the 2nd amendment. It just gives them another faceless tool to use against us to fix whatever potential "problem" they see standing in the way...even if its imaginary.

Hey, you get one of the kids to put the number on speed dial, top off the coffee and it's all good. The point Americans need to remember is that these Bozo's work for us, well they are supposed to. They get so caught up in their world of polling question refinement and viewer spots they forget to go to work.

Someone, I think Eric Albert seeded a story about the Senate 60 vote rule, long standing tradition, reported as an essential for passing things in the Senate. Came time to vote on the cheesy Bush AG who can't define torture, the vote goes on 54? Sup with that action? You bet I'll call Feinstein, Schumer and the Committee. Image and perception are everything to these pork wielders, it's good to give them a glimpse of reality.

When 10,000 others get tired enough of being ignored we'll have an 800 number. When 2 million are calling we will get a system like the 311 Bloomberg has in built here in NYC. Any question, problem, concern, dial 311. A pot hole to a hotel concierge looking for a translator, we supply the questions, they work on performing jobs based on the public input. It could work in Washington and will, when enough is too much for more of us.

damn the people for making you hear nonsense! have they no respect? If they want to know how their situations are, they should just ask the White Man. You should sound-proof your Bubble, Bill.... that makes things much easier.

Bill Harrison (quoting me)...If I were a twenty something, brown skinned male saying what I say, there's a lot you may not have gotten to hear.

Bill...Every time I hear this nonsense all I have to do is turn on CSPAN during most any demonstration here in DC and see the great unwashed assembled from the ranks of such patriots as International A.N.S.W.E.R. and the New Black Panthers to remind myself how ridiculous such claims are.

Okay, you threw me at the phrase, turn on C-SPAN, during most any demonstration we have here in DC? Huh? Now we can pick up with rediculous, thanks you're a hoot.

Wow, news to me of great Marching on Washington. Bummer, is so much is missing my gaze? Please, share the mushrooms For starters I remember real marches. There's not anything moving in the streets like that except by isolated and underreported happenstance. We see the middle east crowds, in South America, even undocumented workers here. We honor a red white and blue magnet, on the SUV bumper, help is tipping the illegals doing the car wash and dining at a factory farm franchise.

A chance to see the soul of a people on C-SPAN, network par excellence and my go to source for cultural understanding for sure. Moving on, when would those protests be?

Even Critical Mass that rides the last Friday of every month and has for 25 years gets rough spots and some ugly. The when the cops Does it include police roughness? Earth to Billo, I am a New Yawkah, can't BS me on ethnic profiling and protests and cops and clamp downs on free speech. Can't outdo our anything crowd, that's what we do, make a few crowds and everything goes down here. Or it doesn't. But it isn't spinning.

Do forty miles with me in the subway and we can revisit the theory of a video know it all.

Whatever your DC madness offers in live protest events, we've got more here and I do not see anything on the news. The big exception was the immigrants and Latinos, Campisions driven from sustainable lands with World Bank loans that can never be repaid, but like a tape worm keep working its host, parasites do that.

more for less. r. got you and then some happening live, here. We had the pleasure of hosting the GOP event not long ago. From the view you give it seems you don't go beyond the television in understanding what the rest of the world is like. Makes the strike even worse.

Now that the writers strike is on, Hollywood showing its real power, my two cents on the hard ball upside, keep the ponies pimping in the primary show. Hope to slide closer to election with no impeachment no real investigations, do a Ford and move on. s and the comics silenced, the politicos are having a bigger holiday and there's nothing bigger than weather they are reporting that's worth the time to listen.

As for the suggestion there's no difference between me being in my body and others, you're an absolute ass to even suggest there's no difference. Hell, everyone's look and dress say something based on where they go or what they do. Troublemakers, government hecklers, nudges like me calling them crooks and liars, worst of all inspiring others to my cause of challenging blind faith in government and getting followers to doubt the wisdom and care of the FDA?

Try to follow along with the story line. Anyone can be a target, even me now as 120lb, AARP member with a subway card and reusable tote bag. Everywhere I go it makes a difference where I am and what I'm wearing, where I want to go.

What's more, who I'm with matters. If I go into a store with my son's friend, a chestnut colored, body crusher sized boy with droopy drawers, a punk cap with a doo rag and a little bling . We're getting tailed or half the floor staff will rush to help us, by literally holding our hands. They judge, it is human and it all matters. What is bad in not to acknowledge the visible differences but to get past the idea that the outside tells what is ever in the hearts and minds. Doesn't work like that, never has in human history and never will. Bad guys pretend too.

Real bigots pretending to have color blindness have the gall or delusion to say otherwise.

On occasion it feels like tips would be a good theme, Like a Zaggat but bag-it, Bill's daily denial sheet. There's a great clue something's going on, we weed out Coulter and Climate chuckles, it's probably my watchlist too! *smirk*

As for any of the local gang hype of Panthers etc, I live in NYC and go everywhere and do it on foot or subway. Giving me a CNN glimpse of an angry kid isn't learning. These kids live and work here too. Some just need to learn how to survive, they all need to eat. They need a way to build a life. They need tools.

The only thing you have there on CNN that's newsworthy, isn't reported. Tour Washington and see how the Congress has done in 't's own back yard. It is the slums beyond the bulldozed and deluxe digs for K Streeters.

The littlest part of America with every member of the House and Senate close enough to spit there, and spit is what they have done for DC. more guns, more drugs, more failure for the Congress, confirming once again no one fails as spectacularly as they.

Wow! I thought HST was gone. Need more.

What does HST stand for?

Hunter S. Thompson

Pamela, at 12.2, that was brillant, and well said. Thank you for being the sharp social critic. I just want to give you a hug for saying it like it is.

Pamela, you stick to NYC and I'll stick to DC thank you very much. I've been more than a bit entertained by all of the demonstrations here in recent years which I've witnessed in person. They're quite comical actually. And if you want to blame DC's endemic poverty, crummy school system (despite the largest per pupil outlays in the country) and crime in parts of the city on someone it's more about the gross incompetence of the DC government and the inability of some DC voters to see through charlatans like Mayor-For-Life Marion Barry along with broken families than anything Congress has done or hasn't done. The latest incident of corruption that would make even a New Orleans city worker blush, was just revealed last week.

Pamela, you stick to NYC and I'll stick to DC thank you very much. I've been more than a bit entertained by all of the demonstrations here in recent years which I've witnessed in person.

Entertained, Bill? Entertained? The great "unwashed," as you call them, happen to consist of parents mourning their children who died in the bloody, immoral catastrophe known as the Iraq war; Iraq veterans who witnessed the tragedy first-hand; individuals of conscience and compassion who are outraged by the torture, imprisonment and deaths of Iraqis and Afghanis (courtesy of the Bush administration); American citizens who are outraged by the theft (once again--courtesy of the current administration) of our Constitutional rights; people of all colors, nationalities and walks of life who still believe, despite the abysmal media coverage, that their protests are worth the effort; and a growing number of your fellow citizens who are seeking to protect you (yes, you!) as well as the rest of us from the ultimate nightmare slowly unfolding before our eyes.

It can't happen here, eh? Isn't that what people of your ilk say--until it's too late?

Some of us--Celestina, Pamela Drew and the others who have given their support to this article-- aren't comfortable waiting for it to happen. Perhaps some of us actually give a damn about what happens to our country. Perhaps some of us actually give a damn about what might happen to someone other than ourselves. You may have a difficult time with that last concept, Bill. I suggest you let it sink in for awhile.

It's easy to mock and sneer and level insults at people with whom you disagree. Too easy. But it's much more difficult to put yourself on the line--by writing, protesting or filmmaking. In other words, by DOING something.

My grandmother had friends who lost their jobs at Berkeley during the McCarthy era-- one for the seemingly innocent crime of subscribing to the Daily Worker.

I marched with my father against the war in Vietnam and I continue to march today.

As Alice Walker once said, "Activism is the rent we pay for living on this planet."

You haven't paid any rent in years, Bill. Maybe you should begin listening to those who do.

Bill --

gross incompetence of the DC government and the inability of some DC voters to see through charlatans like Mayor-For-Life Marion Barry

I agree. I worked in northern Virginia for 13+ years and the nightly local news seemed to always have a new case of wrongdoing of one kind or another. Followed your link and was neither surprised nor outraged - just tired. I don't miss it at all.

Well said Rebecca, I would have made some sort of comment, but I find Bill to be too much of a machine. Reminds me of someone that is not really listening except to respond in order to get a response. Given that and the nature of his beliefs, I don't think it wise to carry on with him. Smile and let the child wet his pants. "Its OK darling, we'll clean this up. Next time lets try to make it to the potty. OK?"

I"m getting way to cynical, this country needs a change.

That's real good, Rebecca. You go girl. Meantime, I'll worry about the people I care about like the buddy who did two tours in Ramadi and can't believe how it's turned around and the son of a friend who dropped out of VMI and joined the Marine Corps and served as a ground pounder in Anbar. I could give two cents about 90% of these protesters. And I don't need any lectures from the likes of you either, thank you.

And as for you Allan, I listen to everyone but when I hear crap masquerading as an argument I call people on it. You know, like a real debate's supposed to be?

Rebecca,

Bill lives in a bubble he fashioned out of cash and poor kids. Don't let what he says bother you. He won't be happy until everyone making under $90,000/yr is dead and gone. And don't take it personally, because I think he was pre-recorded.

Given that and the nature of his beliefs, I don't think it wise to carry on with him.

Thanks, Allan. Good advice.

:-]

Bill lives in a bubble he fashioned out of cash and poor kids. Don't let what he says bother you. He won't be happy until everyone making under $90,000/yr is dead and gone. And don't take it personally, because I think he was pre-recorded.

MORE good advice. Merci, Mars!

He won't be happy until everyone making under $90,000/yr is dead and gone.

Isn't he from DC? You can make that much there and still be poor...

But seriously, Mars313, that comment wasn't exactly kosher with the CoH. You can argue your points without resorting to personal attacks.

DISCLAIMER: I didn't really read any comments previous to that, so I'm not picking on you if someone else started it. That's just what I read.

Bill Harrison...That's real good, Rebecca. You go girl. Meantime, I'll worry about the people I care about like the buddy

Go Bill, you did get one thing right, Rebbecca you go girl. Too bad Bill lost his stride but not strident illusionary rhetoric. Too many who wave a star spangled smoke screen at this disaster of NeoCon rule, seem to have a very close friend that lets them be as vested as anyone could be. It's like Stephen Colbert's Black friend, keep those in the pocket to pull out in debate, suggest worldliness and tolerance too.

The collectors of suitable friends, by virtue of applying the heart to the sleeve for the appropriate topic, are then claiming the moral high ground. What ever you say, the moral high ground makes it sacred. Look anywhere you'll see the virtue peddlers always have a heart on the shirt sleeve.

That's why those hearts can't feel, they are accessories, flapping in the breeze while real ones are bleeding.

You people are hysterical, Adam, Celestina and a few others excepted. A bill is advanced in the House that would establish a non-binding commission to study why certain people resort to violence through alienation within their native country or there country of residence and suddenly it's the resurrection of the HUAC all over again with a few spectacular examples of non-thinking ad hominem thrown in for leavening. "Get smarter here", indeed.

Bill, there is a difference between "their" and "there".... check it out

Adam,
I know I know! Bill just brings out the best of me.

I will try harder to mask my attacks

It's actually more of an academic exercise is trying study the motivations behind people of all kinds of walks of life who turn against either their native countries or their country of residence and make that turn not only an intellectual exercise but the cause and motivation for violence. This is something the Europeans are looking at hard in the wake of their own problems and we should be too. And it need not be limited to Islamic groups and individuals either.

Thanks for the clarification, Celestina. I'm inclined to agree with your statement:

I don't want them to turn to simplistic solutions such as "exposure to dangerous ideas creates dangerous people", though. That is not (in my opinion) a "cause" of terrorism, and is a very dangerous scapegoat to create.

It's actually more of an academic exercise is trying study the motivations behind people of all kinds of walks of life who turn against either their native countries or their country of residence and make that turn not only an intellectual exercise but the cause and motivation for violence. This is something the Europeans are looking at hard in the wake of their own problems and we should be too. And it need not be limited to Islamic groups and individuals either.

Actually the threat of terrorism is much greater in much of Europe than it is in the US-- particularly in Britain and Russia--possibly France, the Netherlands and Germany too.

The Brits have a problem though-- any terror investigation-- whether it focuses on Muslims or not-- is met with howls of protest from that community. And-- Britain may well have more Islamic extremists than any Western European country.

You're referring to this:

Executive Order titled 'Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq' was signed last week on the 17th of July and acts as an amendment to the National Emergencies Act.

Similar to H.R. 1955 in that it casts a HUGE net, targeting not just those who commit violent acts or pose the risk of doing so in Iraq, but also third parties -- such as U.S. citizens in this country -- who knowingly or unknowingly aid or encourage such people.

Again open to interpretation. Do anti-war protesters give aid to the enemy? Many people think Jane Fonda did, so under this law she could have had her assets seized if applied during the Vietnam era.

Thanks hack. That's exactly the one. That one I read. I find it terrifying for what it doesn't specifically say, instead of what it does. The vagueness, and broadness, are intentional. Those kinds of bills don't have anything unintentional in them, or not in them.

I actually think they've got Canada covered too.

Nope. When this stuff goes down, sucking up to the people in charge hasn't been shown to help much.

Might as well let 'er rip. If we're going down, we need to go down swinging.

I like your spirit, Prospero! Damn the fascist torpedoes and full speed ahead!

I have just a couple brief comments --
One is: Add this to the list of questions we want to ask candidates, "What do you think HR 1955 means, and would you vote for it?"
Another question is: "Which of the Bush administration's executive orders or laws would you repeal first, and why?"
And finally, wouldn't a better approach to learning peace be to encourage class instruction in 'conflict resolution' so that wars and terrorist acts and other nasty stuff are no longer seen as the only option?

We should probably be freaking out about any bill that passes under the Bush regime.

I know people who have been freaking out over this for several years now.