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CELESTINA

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SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
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Being An Atheist Doesn't Mean You Are Immoral

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:06 PM EDT
world-news, atheism, morals, logic, school-shootings
By Celestina
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A comment on a recent Newsvine thread stated:

A Columbine shooter's diary, released along with loads of other documents by the Denver Post, shows that he was an atheist who believed all the evolutionary teaching he'd been fed in school. He wondered why he should suppress his natural instincts and be nice. Surely natural instincts like eating, breeding, and fighting are good since they were instrumental in evolving us to our present state. He viewed most people as being worthless, and would have selectively killed most U.S. citizens if he could.

If we are created by God, and He loved us enough to send His Son to die for our sins, then we are all very special indeed.

If there is no God and we are purely the result of random chance, then we are no more significant than bacteria on a mote of dust.

The Columbine shooters held the latter view and took it to a logical conclusion for their circumstances.

I hear this line all the time, and find it very interesting. To be fair, I describe myself as fanatically agnostic, rather than atheistic, but in fully embracing the fact that I do not know, and in fact cannot know whether or not there is a god, I must face squarely the possibility that there is not. When you couple this with the fact that in all my nearly 31 years on this earth, I have never yet seen any indisputable evidence of a god, I find that I often proceed on the assumption that there is not. And yet, somehow, I don't find myself tempted to go out and hurt others. How could this be?

The argument:

If there is no God, there is no basis for a moral system.

Makes the assumption that there could be no reason for a moral system other than God. Certainly, the first step that many make when they begin to logically evaluate the religion with which they have been indoctrinated is to question the "rules" of that system. This is perfectly reasonable. Once the fear of hell (or other punishments) has been dismissed, however, the next step is to consciously evaluate what actions you may take of your own free will which will benefit you as an individual, and which are damaging.

One path from this place leads to the conclusion that no life is particularly valuable, and that therefore your actions have no consequence. This is flawed reasoning, however, as we must consider the fact that we do not exist in a vacuum. Our actions do have practical consequences, and many of those practical consequences may return to us.

If, for example, I proceed along the premise that I may take any action I wish, and as a result of that action I decide to kill a random person on the street, I am setting up a course of consequences which are most likely damaging to me in the long run. In this society, of course, I face imprisonment and even death for my action. But let us make the assumption that we have a different society; that, in fact, everyone decides to take up precisely the same moral position I have chosen. What does this mean for me? It greatly increases the likelihood that I will at some point be gunned down senselessly in the street. This also is not to my benefit.

Thinking through this scenario, then, we must consider what behavioural standard will benefit us most if it were to be adopted by all. Surprisingly, we come right around the the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" principle which has been the basis of most major religions. Guess what? Belief in God is not necessary for a moral system. Logic will serve us just as well.

It could be argued, therefore, that the reason for individuals such as those who committed the school massacres referenced in the article and the comment I listed above, is not in fact a lack of religious fervor. Rather, the problem (or at least one part of it) is faulty logic.

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Brad Leclerc

Yeah, there are a lot of non religious reasons to act morally, and reasons that many religious morals aren't that great really..but that's a different story :P

I think "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a pretty good way to live, regardless of your beliefs.

  • 13 votes
#1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:17 PM EDT
Celestina

O.K...wait. Are you actually seeing the article? 'Cause it's showing up blank and "Untitled" when I try to get to it... Same thing happened for a while on my other article I put up today. No idea what is going on.

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:19 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Well, I'm PRETTY sure I'm not psychic. So i can only assume I can see it hehe.

  • 8 votes
#1.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:23 PM EDT
Celestina

Well, I contend you are psychic, because it sure wasn't showing up for me! *grin*

I think it's fixed now. Newsvine staff said it was something to do with expiration issues...

Anyway, on to your original comments, thanks for the feedback. I thought about going into why religious morals are not foolproof as well, but like you decided maybe that was material for another day...

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:31 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I thought about going into why religious morals are not foolproof as well, but like you decided maybe that was material for another day...

I could talk for DAYS about that....definately down want to steer things off course too much :P

As for being able to be a moral atheist, there's also the issue that a moral atheist is moral because they think it's the right thing to do, or the best way to get along in life...and not to do with a religious heaven/hell afterlife sort of praise and punishment system.

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:38 PM EDT
Zeina

As for being able to be a moral atheist, there's also the issue that a moral atheist is moral because they think it's the right thing to do, or the best way to get along in life...and not to do with a religious heaven/hell afterlife sort of praise and punishment system.

Exactly my thoughts. Let them shove their heaven and hell up their a**; I believe in morality because i care, period.

  • 18 votes
#1.5 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:59 PM EDT
jnearen

Oh, cool, you essentially just quoted Jesus.

  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:12 PM EDT
mrcg

But you do have to worry about the amoral atheists.

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:06 AM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I worry about amoral people of all kinds, just as I don't worry much about moral people of all kinds. :)

  • 7 votes
#1.8 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:18 AM EDT
Zeina

But you do have to worry about the amoral atheists.

I would worry more about the amoral theists because it's not enough that they screw you over, but they take the moral high ground in the same time!

  • 6 votes
#1.9 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:01 AM EDT
Cassandra

Yes, we have a number of examples of that very thing in public life in recent years. I am in complete agreement with you: these are the really scary folks!

    #1.10 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:13 PM EDT
    Brad Leclerc

    Should there be a link in there, or do you think the word "these" is scary? :P

    • 2 votes
    #1.11 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:15 PM EDT
    Daniel A. HalloDeleted
    Adam Kemp

    Acts are not the proof of Morality.

    Why not? How can something be immoral if it doesn't harm anyone? How can a thought not acted upon be immoral?

    • 2 votes
    #1.13 - Sun Oct 1, 2006 2:52 PM EDT
    Brad Leclerc

    Acts are not the proof of Morality.

    Why not? How can something be immoral if it doesn't harm anyone? How can a thought not acted upon be immoral?

    I agree. THINKING about something is not immoral in my mind. It hurts no one, and in some cases is enough to stop something from REALLY happening that is very immoral. I can see no harm in thoughts without action, the problem comes when those thoughts turn into reality and actually has an impact on others.

    • 3 votes
    #1.14 - Mon Oct 2, 2006 9:54 AM EDT
    Daniel A. HalloDeleted
    ajzzz

    You who believe in the Bible should know that the thought is just as harmful as the deed. Why is this true? Because, given the proper circumstance, You may find yourself in a situation, that you are sure you could act on your immoral thoughts and not get caught.

    Morals based on fear sounds like the Bible. It relies on the person doing an action out of impunity, that doesn't sound moral to me. The same goes for not doing something because you'll go to hell.

    Isn't it better to never have those thoughts?

    That's subjective, and better would not be the word I use for moral.

    Would you feel at ease if your child's teacher told you. I have thoughts of being a pedophile, but don't worry, I would never touch your kids. I doubt it. In fact you would get him sacked. So what is the harm?

    No, I don't have any children, but I have family, and I would not feel comfortable, I would probably call the police and get them on a registry. That's precaution, and people are very protective of children, and this is biological. It's also logical to be mindful of the vulnerable, that includes children but there are other groups that are vulnerable. If a pedophile doesn't come within 2 miles of a child I couldn't care less.

    I don't agree that thinking is complete amoral, it would be immoral to think about doing something in the sense of planning to do it in reality. That's the point, there's a different between fantasy and reality. I can think about killing someone, and that person doesn't even have to be real, that's not immoral to me.

    • 3 votes
    #1.16 - Mon Oct 2, 2006 9:26 PM EDT
    Adam Kemp

    You who believe in the Bible should know that the thought is just as harmful as the deed.

    A few points:

    1. I don't believe in the Bible, and I don't think Rukh does either.

    2. Just because the Bible says something doesn't make it true. The Bible says a lot of things we don't follow. Do you believe it's true because it's in the Bible, or do you believe that it's in the Bible because it's true? If it's the latter, then you shouldn't be trying to defend it by pointing to the fact that it's in the Bible. If it's the former, then I can't help you. :)

    3. Your pedophile example is an example of someone telling you "I'm tempted to touch children". What's wrong in that case is the desire to do something inherently immoral, not just the thought of it. There are some people who fantasize about rape but are not actually tempted to do so (i.e., people who can actually distinguish between fantasy and reality). According to the Bible, someone who imagines rape in a fantasy is just as guilty as someone who actually rapes. That's obviously ridiculous.

    I'll say it again: A thought is not immoral. Actions are immoral. Desires may be warning signs that someone may do something bad, but they are not immoral in themselves. Only actions can possibly be immoral. Anything else would be arbitrary and useless as a moral system.

    • 5 votes
    #1.17 - Mon Oct 2, 2006 10:29 PM EDT
    Daniel A. HalloDeleted
    Brad Leclerc

    Well...I missed a day and people took all the arguments I would have used already, so I guess I don't have to worry about it hehe.

    And no, I don't believe in the Bible either...not really sure why that even came up given that my argument didn't contain anything about religion at all, let alone the bible....but....no..

    • 1 vote
    #1.19 - Wed Oct 4, 2006 10:00 AM EDT
    Monica D.

    I know I am joining this very late, and quite possibly this is addressed below, but this article showed up on my recent radar, and I think these are great points.

    the problem comes when those thoughts turn into reality and actually has an impact on others

    BL, I think this is very insightful. Few actions come without some frame of thought. People seem to think that the bible teaches that bad thoughts are immoral. I don't think it does, actually, but maybe I've missed something.

    • 1 vote
    #1.20 - Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:33 PM EST
    Adam Kemp

    People seem to think that the bible teaches that bad thoughts are immoral. I don't think it does, actually, but maybe I've missed something.

    Matthew 5:28:

    5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    • 1 vote
    #1.21 - Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:02 PM EST
    Monica D.

    Thanks Adam, I appreciate the response. Some Bible scholars teach that same interpretation of that particular verse, but if I read the whole chapter, I can't help but ask about the logical order of Jesus's teachings there. There seems to be an algebraic equation going on there, don't you think? Doesn't it beg more questions?

    I hope you won't disregard me because I am skeptical of the conventional interpretation in this case. :) And I really am skeptical, in case it seems I would presumptuously try to make my case through you. That is not where I'm heading.

    • 1 vote
    #1.22 - Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:32 PM EST
    Adam Kemp

    I don't think the order has anything to do with whether it is considered a sin. It may be considered a lesser sin, but it is still explicitly called out.

    • 1 vote
    #1.23 - Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:59 PM EST
    Monica D.

    When I say "order" I don't mean "sequence." Probably not the best word to use, sorry. I am looking at the pattern of the chapter. Why take that one verse out of the chapter and say that Jesus is calling out sin, when you wouldn't apply that to other verses in that chapter? Look at all the other verses. The standard for behavior in every other verse couldn't be mistaken for calling it out as sin. What happens in a man's heart is an inconvenient truth about the heart/thought life, but not "sin," I believe, but then I am not a man and don't truly understand the visual/mental aspect of this. I believe it goes beyond what Jesus actually says here about the thought life.

    The thing that makes this particular verse different from the others is that sexual morality is considered different from other types of morals in the Christian ethic. The big problem that people have with the Bible's sexual code of ethics is that it genuinely reaches into their private lives, more so than on any other topic. We could discuss this, but I digress a little here.

    As an example for argument's sake, it does not directly affect me if a man I encounter fantasizes about sex with me, although it certainly could affect his actions. He may feel uncomfortable around me or he may try to hit on me. I am just using this as an example... The harm done becomes more obvious if you understand this. The man might enjoy a happy friendship with the woman if he wasn't inhibited by his thought life.

    Doesn't this interpretation of this passage make more sense? What do you make of my argument?

    • 1 vote
    #1.24 - Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:17 AM EST
    Adam Kemp

    Adultery is a sin. Matthew calls lust a form of adultery. That's pretty clear to me, even in context. Maybe you disagree. Fine. How about coveting? That's one of the Ten Commandments. Not an action, but a thought.

      #1.25 - Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:19 PM EST
      Monica D.

      ok, covetousness is a different discussion in a different passage with a different purpose. If you look at the pattern of the verses in Matthew, it doesn't actually call lust a sin. Have you actually looked at the verses and their patterns? It categorizes lust as something that will lead you away from the best course of action, like not paying your damages in a lawsuit against you (vs. 26). This passage also tells us to turn the other cheek when someone strikes us. If we elevate the lust verse, we must elevate all the other verses, which is clearly not the main intent here. Lust, pride & arrogance are considered things that keep a person from seeing things rationally, they are not a "sin" with the conventional definition.

      Jesus is clearly pointing out that no one is able to completely understand and live by every commandment. He is setting forth to believers the teaching/belief that he did fulfill it completely. Look at vs. 17 to 19. He is saying that practicing them and teaching them (old testament commandments) with accuracy, is what he wants. The whole passage is an indictment against a rote understanding of the commandments.

      My concern is that supposed Bible teachers are teaching morality incorrectly from the Bible. On the other hand, many times I don't have the communication skills to accurately convey my meaning. If they really understood it, they would not alienate people especially with the sexual code of ethics. On the other hand, embracing this code of ethics or not, people will still reject Jesus as God.

      • 1 vote
      #1.26 - Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:55 PM EST
      Adam Kemp

      It may not call lust a sin, but it calls it the same thing as adultery, which is explicitly a sin. Again, that message seems pretty clear to me. Lust is just like adultery according to Matthew.

      I don't really care to debate every single verse of the Bible to determine what it really meant. My interpretation is no more authoritative than yours (and vice versa). It is important to note, though, that the majority of Christians seem to agree that lust is a sin, and so is greed. There is a consensus that some thoughts are sins. I don't think that makes any sense (regardless of how you interpret the Bible), but that's the majority interpretation and the common belief.

      • 1 vote
      #1.27 - Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:53 PM EST
      Monica D.

      Best place to add a note - I agree. Covetousness is a thought. I didn't mean to skip over it. The direction I am going in general is that God doesn't really care about some offense to himself when we have a thought life that isn't the best. I would submit that the reason it is in the bible is because we set ourselves up for actions that don't take us where we really want to go when we get into these thoughts... I actually forgot about covetousness, and I am sure there are other places where the thoughtlife is addressed that I didn't think of. Why does God care about those things? I would like to hear more from the rational point of view you present.

        #1.28 - Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:55 PM EST
        Reply
        Chello

        I describe myself as fanatically agnostic, rather than atheistic, but in fully embracing the fact that I do not know, and in fact cannot know whether or not there is a god, I must face squarely the possibility that there is not. When you couple this with the fact that in all my nearly 31 years on this earth, I have never yet seen any indisputable evidence of a god, I find that I often proceed on the assumption that there is not.

        You have summed up how I have felt since my father's death. I dearly wish there was something else out there and a reunion in heaven. However, I don't know. I go back and forth. Thanks for the article as always.

        • 9 votes
        Reply#2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:36 PM EDT
        Celestina

        I dearly wish there was something else out there and a reunion in heaven.

        Wouldn't that be nice? As much time as I spend advocating for logic and reason, I confess that it would be lovely if there were some point where I could just relax and have faith that everything will turn out o.k. if I just follow a pre-prescribed doctrine. *sigh* Ah, well. Not my lot, and sounds like not yours, either. Maybe at some point, I will know the truth, and it will work out so that I can sit back and have a good laugh about it all. Here's hoping!

        • 8 votes
        #2.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:46 PM EDT
        Miss Dev

        Strangly, it was after the death of someone I loved that I began to believe in an afterlife. I lost them in such a sudden way - and was so shocked by it - that I just couldn't accept that I would never see them again. The epiphany came like this:

        I was standing by the car of my friend who had just been murdered, and two people walked up to me and we started talking. They asked me if I believed in a higher being - or god. I said yes. They said: "how can you believe in god at a time like this." My reply: "how can you not?"

        As simple as that.

        It's interesting how ones life experiences can influence how they view spirituality - and no one person's experience is exactly like someone elses. What convinces one person that there is an other-worldly force may convince someone else of the exact opposite.

        • 13 votes
        #2.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:09 PM EDT
        Corey Spring

        So true.

        • 3 votes
        #2.3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:13 PM EDT
        Reply
        KyleN

        I think immorality and atheism get tied together because religion is used to categorize expected behavior from a group of people. A religion acts in one regard as a sort of behavioral platform or contract in which people who identify with the platform and adopt it then others can except certain behaviors from them. Atheism on the other hand does not have a similar manual so the term isn't meaningful in the same way that Buddhist, Muslim, or Christian is.

        A simplified analogy is describing characteristics of a car. One person says it's a 'fast' car, another says their car is 'speedy' and another says their car is 'green'. Hmm how does green relate to fast or speedy? It doesn't help much, it's descriptive but just not informative along these lines. Religions codify morality and then some people sign up, that gives them a set of expected behaviors and is descriptive of them while atheism talks about something else altogether.

        Having a set of rules doesn't make the rules good, or force people to follow them. There are tons of examples of people not following the rules they ascribe to themselves. Also the rules themselves might not always be good either. That however isn't the point, the point is to have some basic expectation of another stranger, and knowing they call themselves Hindu gives you some basis for your expectations and feel like you know them somewhat. When somebody calls themselves atheist you have no more idea or notion than before if they will slit your throat or hold out a helping hand.

        A good way to study the effect in history is to look at the interactions between cultures that first discover another people with a new religion. They have no idea about that foreign religion and usually demonize it or at least consider it immoral. It's lack of information. Atheism can't get out from under that because it doesn't have information to give.

        The best way forward perhaps is a humanist atheist group to form and set forth some code of behavior they think is moral and ascribe themselves to it. Then others can look at that and know where they are coming from and respect it.

        I consider myself agnostic however in certain contexts I'll say I'm Christian, the reason is that my personal moral code correlates closely to that described by Christians and so it serves to impart information that I think they want to know.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:46 PM EDT
        Celestina

        Yes, you certainly have a point in that we often use descriptive labels (such as "Christian" or "Activist" or "Socialist") in order to impart certain information about ourselves in an expedient manner. The problem with this, of course, is that it leads to many assumptions which are unfounded. There are Christians who favour revenge, Activists who make exceptions to their principles, and Socialists who advocate for privatized medicine (never met any, but I'm sure they're out there). The term Christian shouldn't convey anything more than an attempted adherance to the beliefs and behaviours set forward by Jesus, but of course that is not all that is included with the label. Atheism, in and of itself, should convey nothing more than a disbelief in God.

        I truly believe we are better off without any such labels, as without them we would have to evaluate every person who comes before us as a unique individual. Sadly, the desire to identify with a group seems to make the usage of such labels inevitable.

        • 10 votes
        #3.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:54 PM EDT
        KyleN

        I don't see labeling as bad because it serves a purpose to condense otherwise complex knowledge into a compact though somewhat inaccurate form. It's kinda like a laymens guide to your complex personal moral code. I usually don't have the time or inclination to relay all the nuances of my own code to somebody else (even if they wanted to hang out with me for 29 years :).

        Also many people are not philosophers and do not want to or like to sit around thinking about morals and the effects on themselves and society. They simply want the manual of how to life 'good' and move on to things they do find interesting. For these people religion is the answer, they pick it up and follow it trusting somebody else to think those things through for them. While certainly not ideal it's hardly unique to religion or morals.

        We do this in other facets of life as well such as science. Most people do not know how relativly old and simple technology works when it lies outside their interests such as internal combustion engines and the underlying related information of combustion reaction under low pressure in oxygen rich environments. They want the part that says the car burns gas to move and here are the keys. This same person might spend all day telling you how the venom of a tree frog in panama evolved but care little about the car they drove to the coffeehouse other than that is worked, and care little about analyzing their own morals beyond following rules somebody else thought up.

        So the roundabout way to my point is one function of religion is moral specialization and it's not really a bad thing. Maybe I'm a pessimist in this regard but I think there are many people who simply will never stop and spend the effort to do self-exploration and find their own personal moral code, they don't find it interesting enough or they only care enough to be a consumer that shops around for a good fit instead of developing their own. I respect that because it's taking me years to develop one and the process is never ending and as I alluded to earlier I still am not totally comfortable striking out on my own so to speak and have still adopted 90% of a major religion instead.

        • 3 votes
        #3.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:36 PM EDT
        Celestina

        I don't think religions are bad. I don't think anyone should ever submit entirely to an outside institution, however.

        I recognize that many people simply do not have the inclination to sit around considering the "right" moral code for them, or many other issues. I can't say I understand it *smile* but I see it everywhere, so I must concede it to be true. For those people, religion is a useful institution. The problem I see with some people, however (as distinct from religious institutions), is that they subsume their own will so entirely in that of another that they do not question when the institution from which they have accepted their moral code begins to act outside the moral code they espouse. A religion which professes to believe in peace, to use the obvious example, declaring a holy war. At this point, one would hope that the followers would be inclined to think enough to consider whether the actions they are being asked to take are actually in line with the morals in which they believe. All too often, this doesn't happen.

        • 8 votes
        #3.3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:50 PM EDT
        Reply
        yarDeleted
        ultimathule

        As an aside, I think Universal Unitarianism is an interesting religion and seems to undergird important moral principles of life. Does anyone have any thoughts about this religion?

          Reply#5 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:00 PM EDT
          Vincent Grayson

          They're a very confusing religion. Every UU I've met has a different set of beliefs. The *core* of the church's belief is a pretty simple and arguably good belief in the inherent worthiness of all people, etc, etc. They pay lip service to some Christian concepts of God (minus the trinity part, hence the name Unitarian), but the degree to which a given congregation is religious will vary from church to church. The bulk of the church I used to attend was fairly Christian in terms of traditional beliefs, but still followed the core tolerance stuff.

          I eventually stopped going because I just lost interest in listening to a guy talk for an hour or so once a week (plus, once I got a 9-5 job, I value sleeping in on the weekends far more)

          I think a UU church is probably the best to send children too, it still involves lots of religious education, but they pull from so many religions it's more like a good sampler to show your kids what people believe, rather than any indoctrination (except for all the hippie tolerance stuff)

          • 6 votes
          #5.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:50 PM EDT
          Reply
          Adam Hobson

          If, for example, I proceed along the premise that I may take any action I wish, and as a result of that action I decide to kill a random person on the street, I am setting up a course of consequences which are most likely damaging to me in the long run. In this society, of course, I face imprisonment and even death for my action. But let us make the assumption that we have a different society; that, in fact, everyone decides to take up precisely the same moral position I have chosen. What does this mean for me? It greatly increases the likelihood that I will at some point be gunned down senselessly in the street. This also is not to my benefit.

          Just a note, this sounds very much like egoism, the theory that there are no truly "selfless" actions, that everything we do we do for our own gain.

          Just a question, do you believe morals are relative or absolute? Since it seems that you are getting your morality from how you would wish to be treated, it seems that this is a relative morality, but I am not sure since you did not explicitly state that.

          Could there be absolute morality without god(s)?

          • 3 votes
          Reply#6 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:20 PM EDT
          Celestina

          Yes, I tend to use a fairly relativistic approach to morality. I have never been able to come up with an action which is always, absoloutely wrong. The closest I have ever managed to come is causing pain to another. But even that, I must qualify with "needlessly" causing pain to another, as there are times where causing some amount of pain is simply the kinder thing to do, or where it must be done in self-defense. Likewise, I have been able to imagine no action which is always, absoloutely right.

          Can there be absoloute morality without gods? Yes, as it is up to each individual in that situation to determine their own boundaries, and some may decide that an absoloutist approach is what works best for them. My husband and I actually argue about this fairly frequently, as while we are both agnostic, he takes a much more absoloutist approach to morals than I do. To him, there are things that are simply "wrong". I have trouble seeing it that way.

          As to egoism...well, I prefer Individualism when backed into a corner. But basically, yes, I try to live my life in a way which I believe would benefit me if everyone else behaved in exactly the same way. If you want to delve deeper into this aspect of my beliefs, I am willing, but I am not sure how much of my pseudo-philosophical meanderings you can stomach. *smile*

          • 6 votes
          #6.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:07 PM EDT
          MGDasef

          Yes, it's my moral absolute. I make the decisions. If you need a big guy in the sky dictating right or wrong, how is that a sign of your ability to think things out on your own?

          Okay, society has laws. Following the laws, no matter how they came about, is good for your self-interest. That is, you don't wind up in jail.

          Would I kill somebody just because I don't believe in god? Hell, no! It's the believers that seem to think it okay to kill people, either in wars or in executions. I don't see the purpose, so don't subscribe to either form of killing. I also have no interest in eating a person, so there goes the hunting for food idea.

          Many of my moral concepts have been formed by religious concepts; there's no escaping that in society. However, when all is said and done, I decide what's right and wrong. And, you know what? I'm a pretty damned nice person (that's a joke for you slow types).

          • 2 votes
          #6.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:34 PM EDT
          Tim Whitman

          I have never been able to come up with an action which is always, absolutely wrong.

          Can you explain the occasion when rape is not absolutely wrong?

          • 2 votes
          #6.3 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:55 AM EDT
          Walt D

          Can you explain the occasion when rape is not absolutely wrong?

          When Ansab picks up the soap (vile temptress he is)...

          • 2 votes
          #6.4 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:31 PM EDT
          FL Independent

          There are no moral absolutes with or without a god. There are no morals without man to make any judgements. Its always relative. Right and wrong are our concepts.

          • 4 votes
          #6.5 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:56 PM EDT
          Celestina

          Tim--

          No...rape as a concept is always wrong. However, the relativity comes in when you start evaluating specific situations. What we call "rape" is not always wrong. What about statutory rape, where both partners are consenting? We still call it rape, but I cannot say it is always wrong. What about a situation where there was miscommunication (I know it seems like such a thing as being unwilling to have sex should be clear, but sometimes due to the personalities of the involved, it isn't)? Please understand that I have myself experienced rape first hand (as have a ridiculous number of other women in this society alone), and I feel strongly about it as a concept.

          It's easy to condemn concepts. Specific situations, however, often merit another point of view.

          • 10 votes
          #6.6 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:41 PM EDT
          Tim Whitman

          Of course, your original statement was about actions not concepts:
          "I have never been able to come up with an action which is always, absolutely wrong."

          I am sorry to hear that you have experienced such a horrible crime - that is a tragedy. It amazes me then that you are not more black and white on this topic.

          If we confine the question to the action of unwanted sex against someone who has clearly communicated that the sex is unwanted, would you still say that the action is not always wrong?

          • 3 votes
          #6.7 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:11 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          If you start adding conditions to the question ("only if it was clearly unwanted") then you're taking more of a relativist approach, though. You're taking circumstances into account. If I propose one of those hypothetical situations in which you had to rape someone or else an evil villain would nuke a huge city, then the situation changes again. Then you might add a condition like "and no one else was involved". Again, that's looking at the individual situation. This is a relative morality point of view. An absolutist would say that rape is always wrong, regardless of whatever circumstances you might have.

          • 3 votes
          #6.8 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:32 PM EDT
          Tim Whitman

          Being forced to choose between two immoral choices on the basis of which choice is the lesser evil does not make the lesser evil suddenly moral.

          • 5 votes
          #6.9 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:10 PM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          That's a good point, but in relative morality you're judging the action, not the kind of action. Can an action which saves the lives in millions be called "immoral"? Would you consider someone who follows through in that situation a bad person? If not, then does it make sense to call an action immoral if you won't also call the person who acted it out immoral for doing so?

          For another common example, consider a situation in which a train is about to run over 7 children. You're standing next to a switch which would move the train to a different track, but doing so would kill 1 old man. Throwing the switch saves 7 children, but kills 1 old man. Is killing the old man immoral? Is not throwing the switch immoral?

          • 3 votes
          #6.10 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:20 PM EDT
          Celestina

          Tim--

          You are quite right; I did say "action" and I should have said "concept of an action". My mistake.

          Sure, you can qualify the concept with all kinds of circumstances, but then, as Adam pointed out, it becomes relative. People rarely do unkind things just because they want to hurt someone else. They usually do them because they are hurt in some way, and therefore not thinking clearly, or because they don't realize it will hurt the other person, or because they sincerely think it is necessary. Does it make it "right"? No, but it does make it more complicated than a black and white, "good" and "evil" scenario.

          Actually, it was as a result of the hurtful things which have been done to me in my life that I started thinking this way, as it benefits me much more to understand another's reasons for doing something than it does for me to become angry and resentful. Why carry around baggage that someone else gave to you? Better to understand, forgive, and move on, if I possibly can.

          • 2 votes
          #6.11 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:43 PM EDT
          Tim Whitman

          Adam,

          In your "train" example the direct action you are taking is simply throwing a switch, not raping someone. It is the action of the train itself that effects the deaths. And besides, according to your reasoning, what moral basis is there to say that 7 children are more valuable than 1 old man? If we are but animals, what difference does it make?

          Celestina,

          Why carry around baggage that someone else gave to you? Better to understand, forgive, and move on, if I possibly can.

          I agree wholeheartedly with you here. And you are right, we often hurt others because of ways in which we have been hurt. But this seems to point to a larger ethic at work. Where is the cause of the original hurt? How did this cycle begin? When we rationalize individual immorality on this basis, all we've done is to "pass the buck" upstream to the previous generation.

          • 1 vote
          #6.12 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:35 AM EDT
          Adam Kemp

          Pulling a switch that kills a man is no different than pulling a trigger that kills a man. The only distinction is intent. In this case, though, the death of the man would be directly caused by your action (pulling the switch), whereas the death of the children would be partly due to your inaction. Some would argue that doing nothing would be the most moral action, since you wouldn't be actually causing any deaths directly.

          And besides, according to your reasoning, what moral basis is there to say that 7 children are more valuable than 1 old man?

          Good question. There's no "right" answer. A utilitarian perspective would say that more people are more valuable than fewer people (i.e., 100 people > 1 person), and that young children have not had a chance to have a full, happy life, whereas an old man has already led a full life, so saving children is more virtuous than saving an old man. It's entirely subjective, though, and obviously this is yet another crazy hypothetical. It just raises interesting questions like what you just asked.

          If we are but animals, what difference does it make?

          I think that question is dangerously close to the "materialism implies we have no worth" argument, which is complete bull@!$%#, IMO. Even if we are "just animals", we do have value. Humans are naturally care for each other. It's just the way we are.

          One more good example, that might hit home a bit more: A passenger plane is hijacked and they plan to run it into some builings. Shooting down the plane kills about 100 people, whereas not shooting it down kills over a thousand. Which should you do?

          The overall lesson that I think we should learn from these examples is that some actions which would normally be considered immoral (like killing hundreds of people) can be, as you said, the "lesser of two evils". That doesn't necessarily make them "moral" actions, but I do think it makes them not immoral. I think the technical term in ethics is "morally justified".

          A system of absolute morality would consider shooting down a plane full of over a hundred innocent civilians immoral, while a system of relative morality would consider it "morally justified".

          • 5 votes
          #6.13 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:10 AM EDT
          Reply
          yarDeleted
          Ugly Bastard

          Atheists have a basis for a moral system.

          Atheists don't steal my stuff because they are afraid I'll shoot them.

          I'd much rather deal with someone who is struggling to reach the Divine.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#8 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:57 PM EDT
          Celestina

          Well, some atheists may not steal your stuff because they are afraid of your gun.

          Others would not steal your stuff because they would not want you to steal their stuff.

          I don't think that a religious persuasion is a guarantee of moral rectitude, but whether you have a person who claims spiritual precepts or an atheist explaining pragmatic ones, in the end you must decide how much you trust their words. And that's an individual thing.

          • 4 votes
          #8.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:12 PM EDT
          Mike O'Hara

          Wait ....

          I have to say your comment, Ugly Bastard, kinda rubs me the wrong way.. not trying to jump to conclusions.. but, are you saying that you would shoot an atheist, if he stole something? however, if the fellow who was stealing were Christian (or whatever) you would try and help them (this is assuming you somehow knew the religious state of the person in question)?

          Please excuse me if I misinterpret....

          • 6 votes
          #8.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:00 PM EDT
          AdipicAcid

          And a theist won't steal your stuff because he believes that God in Her Infinite Majesty will shoot him with an even bigger gun.

          Let's face it, 99% of the people whether or not they believe in God(s) do or don't do things based on what they think the consequences will be, not because they want to do the right thing.

          • 2 votes
          #8.3 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:56 AM EDT
          Jack Huang

          UB, would you be more worried about the theist who somehow internally justifies stealing from you because you're not in his religion and his religion says that only members of his religion should have everything? Or, would you be more worried about the atheist who's scared of your BFG?

          Religion cuts both ways. Being scared of your 12-gauge usually doesn't. Religion just takes the moral high ground whichever way it cuts.

          • 4 votes
          #8.4 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:03 PM EDT
          MatthewM

          Atheists don't steal my stuff because they are afraid I'll shoot them.

          Thats so ridiculous as to be barely worthy of a reply.

          • 3 votes
          #8.5 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:43 AM EDT
          Reply
          cleareyes

          I think its funny how the guy said he was an atheist and so he took evolution (and its force, natural selection) into his own hands, saying he didn't need morals. But morals aside, if he knew anything about evolution, he'd see that if we took it into our own hands to "select" people, our species would have died out a long time ago--that's why its natural selection, not human selection.

          On a side note, I actually feel I have more morals as an atheist. I kind of think about it like an employer/employee scenario. With faith and a deity, I feel like I have a boss, and just as an employee does not take as much pride in the business as the employer, I'm more apt to cut corners and slack off--maybe bend a few rules. Yet without a deity, I feel as if my life is my own--yes then I end up thinking this is all there is, but what it is is mine. That thought makes me put a lot more weight in every action I do. But then again, this is for me, I think you should believe in what works best for you.

          • 7 votes
          Reply#9 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:12 PM EDT
          StewartColbert08

          Cleareyes, your second paragraph is perfect...you say you feel your life is your own. I recently came to the same conclusion. I really thought about this a few months back and when I decided I was an atheist, I felt free, free from judgement of some thing I did not know if it in fact existed. This does not mean I went out and committed crimes, it means I was able to understand more about myself and how I interact with people. The whole concept is very enlightening.

          • 4 votes
          #9.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:26 PM EDT
          Miss Dev

          I think its funny how the guy said he was an atheist and so he took evolution (and its force, natural selection) into his own hands, saying he didn't need morals. But morals aside, if he knew anything about evolution, he'd see that if we took it into our own hands to "select" people, our species would have died out a long time ago--that's why its natural selection, not human selection.

          Like many people who made irrational, disastrous choices, he chose what about evolution to believe. If it didn't suit his ends - then he had no reason to believe in it.

          • 3 votes
          #9.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:19 PM EDT
          Reply
          spufum

          Interesting article. I enjoyed reading it. Just one thing I'd like to put out there...

          One path from this place leads to the conclusion that no life is particularly valuable, and that therefore your actions have no consequence. This is flawed reasoning, however, as we must consider the fact that we do not exist in a vacuum. Our actions do have practical consequences, and many of those practical consequences may return to us.

          The flaw i see with your point here is your basis that people will not do things because of the consequences. An atheist could be more prone to commit a crime because of his beliefs, at least how I see it. Let me give you an example.

          A man is contemplating murdering someone. He does not care if he is killed in the process. In this situation, practical consequences have no effect. He doesn't care if society shuns him, and he can't be locked up if he's dead. However, if we add religion to scenario, there is an additional barrier he must go past in order to commit the "morally wrong" crime. He must say that he also doesn't care if he ends up in whatever hell his religion explains, and for the rest of eternity he will be in constant agony and punishment. When I look at it like this, it appears that an atheist would not have this extra religious barrier from committing a crime.

          Of course, this works on the flip-side too: If a person kills because of his religion, then I guess we have a problem.

          I'm not trying to say there is anything wrong with atheism. I just wanted to bring this point up for discussion. Thanks!

          • 3 votes
          Reply#10 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:36 PM EDT
          Vincent Grayson

          I think you've pretty much already answered your own question. There are situations in which one belief or the other would clearly be better for society, but by and large, I don't think an atheist will pose any more danger to his fellow man than a Christian, a Buddhist, a Muslim, etc.

          For the record though, it'd probably take quite a bit to truly put a man in a position where he values his life so little that he is willing to die in order to kill someone, but would take far less to inspire a perfectly happy, healthy man to kill if he believed, honestly, that it would increase his position in life (presuming that his religion describes an afterlife superior to this life)

          • 5 votes
          #10.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:59 PM EDT
          spufum

          There are situations in which one belief or the other would clearly be better for society, but by and large, I don't think an atheist will pose any more danger to his fellow man than a Christian, a Buddhist, a Muslim, etc.

          I completely agree. I simply put the idea forward for discussion's sake.

          For the record though, it'd probably take quite a bit to truly put a man in a position where he values his life so little that he is willing to die in order to kill someone [...]

          Well yes, but the same idea applies if I said a man wants to kill 100 people. I'd edit my post if I could to limit confusion, but I guess it's not to big a deal. Thanks!

          • 2 votes
          #10.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:04 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          A man is contemplating murdering someone. He does not care if he is killed in the process.

          What does that have to do with atheism? ANYONE who doesn't care if they die are more likely to be reckless or do something stupid and/or immoral. But personally I'd say it would be harder for an atheist to justify that position because in their mind there is nothing after death, so the life they have now is the ONLY life they will have. Whereas with someone that believes in an afterlife, if they don't feel their action will get them into heaven, they are probably less likely to commit the crime. However, if they think they are justified (whether others agree or not), they would be far more likely to commit it, because they believe they will be headed to a better place anyway.

          • 4 votes
          #10.3 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:33 AM EDT
          Cassandra

          Sounds like a slightly inverted version of Pascal's Wager. Good argument.

          • 2 votes
          #10.4 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:31 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          Bah, Pascal's Wager only takes one religion into consideration....faulty logic up the ying-yang. :P

          • 2 votes
          #10.5 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:36 PM EDT
          Cassandra

          No, no, the principle is exportable. If you believe there is an afterlife where your actions will be judged, then you will not kill, for example. If you are wrong, you'll never know. If you are right,
          don't kill. Therefore, the best choice is not to kill. That's how it goes, and I think you can export it to any situation, and any religion that postulates an afterlife.

          • 2 votes
          #10.6 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:55 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          If you're only going with one rule "do not kill", then yes...that is true. But religions tend to have a lot more rules about what you should and shouldn't do...and a lot of the time they conflict. So Pascal's wager falls apart as soon as you stop assuming only one religion has a possibility of being right.

          For example, a lot of religions have rules about not worshiping other gods...or you get hell. So if you happened to be of the wrong religion, follow all the rules..and you still burn. Worship no gods, and you probably burn too, but you run less risk pissing all gods off equally then worshiping the wrong one....etc etc.... There are a pile of long-winded explanations why that line of logic just doesn't work with more then one possible religion, which is pretty damn arrogant....regardless what you religion someone might follow.

          • 2 votes
          #10.7 - Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:02 PM EDT
          Cassandra

          Well, you are right, of course. Pascal was writing for a very insular Christian society. But it was for that society that he developed the argument. It was never meant to be applied to the question of whether or not you are talking about the same God. But assuming the God in question is Allah, I understand, believe it or not, that he also prohibited murder, so within that religion, the argument holds. You just can't apply it to the question of whether or not you have the right god, as far as I can see.

          • 1 vote
          #10.8 - Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:58 PM EDT
          Brad Leclerc

          Ok, let's say you have 3 religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), and for extreme simplicity let's say you only have to follow 2 rules from each that will get you into heaven if you pick the "right" one (assuming one is right).

          With Christianity you have "do not kill" and "honour your parents".
          With Judaism you have "do not kill" and "don't eat pork"
          With Islam you have "do not kill" and "pray a LOT, on time, every time"

          Now pick a religion and stick to just those rules, and if you're right, you get to go to heaven, if you pick wrong, or none of the above, you go to hell.

          See the falacy of that line of thinking when it comes to Pascal's wager and more then one religion?

          • 1 vote
          #10.9 - Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:20 AM EDT
          AdipicAcid

          Heck, you can simplify it even more than that! Take three religions that all believe in even more similar beliefs, say a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and a Catholic God. Which one do you choose? Remember, choosing poorly will send you to hell for eternity, and you have a two in three chance of being wrong!

          • 1 vote
          #10.10 - Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:41 AM EDT
          Cassandra

          I do see the problem you are citing. Pascal's wager only works if you are a member of one religion. If, for example, in Rukh's example, I were Jewish, under the reasoning of Pascal's wager I would give up my bacon immediately. But you are perfectly correct; it does nothing to help you decide between religions.

          • 2 votes
          #10.11 - Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:45 PM EDT
          Reply
          merrydeath

          thanks for an excellent article Celestina. I always appreciate it when my agnostic and atheist brothers and sisters seek to wrest morality from the hands of the 'religious folk'. I mean that seriously -- as a person of faith, I am tired of hearing that the purpose of religion is to sustain a particular moral code. I believe that the purpose of religion is to help us better understand our relationship to the world (especially the presence of the divine in our midst). This may, occasionally, correlate with a particular moral viewpoint but the purpose of religion is not, in my mind, morality.

          Scholars have suggested for years that the origin of Biblical moral code was social/cultural norms and not the other way around.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#11 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:48 PM EDT
          Celestina

          Scholars have suggested for years that the origin of Biblical moral code was social/cultural norms and not the other way around.

          Yes, and I think this is important to note. It is also worth mentioning that most religions, no matter which name for God they use or which prophets conveyed the information, came up with very similar standards for morality. So...you can either take the stand that we are all children of God and therefore have the same moral "blueprint", or that we as a species logically figured out what would work best for us.

          • 3 votes
          #11.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:59 AM EDT
          Reply
          ajzzz

          I'm agnostic, I'm not undecided or unsure, I lack belief completely. I've never been convicted of a crime, I don't hurt people or want to hurt them, and have strong morality without expecting others to have that morality. The "Golden Rule" "do one to others as you would have them do unto you" that is part of the Abrahamic religions I do not agree with, as I do not expect others to follow my moral code, something which changes as I become less ignorant.

          Atheists I have talked to, watched on television, or read from their works seem to be nicer people than most, who have much empathy for others.

          A lot of the literal and common interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are immoral to me, or irrational, and I see people live by those interpretations. I heard once that it takes nothing for bad people to do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things. I'm sure that fear of God, and it is fear, doesn't stop the religious from doing bad things, the same way I don't think the death penalty stops murderers.

          Someone who thinks that evolution comes from random chance is ignorant, they haven't grasped evolution in the most limited detail, and thus cannot comment from knowledge on something about it. There's another option, that the description of evolution as random chance is insincere, and that anyone writing from this argument is dishonest, and therefore not interested in logical arguments. Given that this person is trying to connect immorality with evolution and atheism it's quite obvious that they're a crazy creationist evangelical. They're on newsvine too, on two occasions I've read comments that basically say the same thing.

          • 3 votes
          #12 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:12 PM EDT
          cleareyes

          Someone who thinks that evolution comes from random chance is ignorant, they haven't grasped evolution in the most limited detail, and thus cannot comment from knowledge on something about it.

          I'm sorry but how are the genetic mutations that cause evolution not from random chance?

            #12.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:21 PM EDT
            ajzzz

            I'm sorry but how are the genetic mutations that cause evolution not from random chance?

            If genetic mutations caused evolution you wouldn't be here.

              #12.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:43 PM EDT
              cleareyes

              Can you explain what causes evolution then? If not the random mutations of species genes that allows them to adapt to their environment better.

              • 1 vote
              #12.3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:08 PM EDT
              Miss Dev

              By it's nature, evolution is not random. The mutations that occur in evolution are called adaptation because they help the creature better adapt to its environment. A random mutation (say, a human with six fingers) is not evolution - it is simply mutation. If it doesn't make the animal more capable of survival - it's not evolution.

              • 3 votes
              #12.4 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:21 PM EDT
              ajzzz

              Can you explain what causes evolution then?

              I can, firstly, are you familiar with natural selection and genetic drift?

              If not the random mutations of species genes that allows them to adapt to their environment better.

              Random mutations don't allow species to adapt to their enviroment.

              • 1 vote
              #12.5 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:36 PM EDT
              cleareyes

              But of all the animals that adapt, there are many that do not. That is why some species go extinct, as their atributes either do not fit their changing environment or another compeditive species overtakes their resources. Evolution happens when an individual of a species has a mutation that improves their capabilities of survial and inturn, procreation. That is how species evolve. But these adaptations are not governed by any force.

                #12.6 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:39 PM EDT
                iarnuocon

                I have to jump in here. Evolution comes from two things and two things, only. One, relative fitness for a given environment (i.e., some creatures are more fit for a given environment than others). Two, changes in the genetic code can be passed to offspring.

                Those are the only two pre-existing criteria for evolution to take place. It doesn't matter if changes in the genetic code are the result of random mutation, careful breeding programs, genetic isolation of breeding populations, or space monkeys firing "mutation" guns at unsuspecting Cletii (plural of Cletus?) ambling along a back road wondering what the pretty light in the sky is. In point of fact, this is the tactic that Intelligent Design believers key in on-- evolution happens, but where it's difficult to explain, God or aliens must have stepped in to make changes.

                My point is that there is no "progress" in evolution, there's only adaptation to the existing environment. This is what is meant when people say that evolution is "undirected." Evolution is a response to changes in the environment over time. Adaptation is probably driven mostly by random mutations and copying errors in reproduction. Relative fitness weeds out less "successful" mutations or changes. "Random" in relation to evolution might be the wrong term, but applied to the vast majority of changes that fuel evolutionary change, it's entirely appropriate.

                • 9 votes
                #12.7 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:54 PM EDT
                ajzzz

                But of all the animals that adapt, there are many that do not. That is why some species go extinct, as their atributes either do not fit their changing environment or another compeditive species overtakes their resources.

                Emphasis on species extinction and changing enviroment does nothing on the understanding of evolution.

                Evolution happens when an individual of a species has a mutation that improves their capabilities of survial and inturn, procreation. That is how species evolve. But these adaptations are not governed by any force.

                That's no accurate. Evolution is not just driven mutation, and procreation is survival, not the other way around. The governing force is natural selection and genetic drift, since you are unfamiliar with these two concepts that make up Evolution, I suggest you read up on them.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

                • 3 votes
                #12.8 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:03 PM EDT
                ajzzz

                not accurate*
                driven by*

                  #12.9 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:06 PM EDT
                  cleareyes

                  Ok, and what causes the changes that allow natural selection to select. And what gives genetic drift the different genes to "drift" to a favorable genome from a less favorable one?
                  Species extinction is relevant because it shows that the changes brought on by evolution are random. Sometimes a species can adapt and they evolve to their changing environment, sometimes not and they go extinct.

                  And I meant survival in a way as they can survival in an individual sense, as then they will be able to stay alive long enough to find a mate to procreate with (that stuff takes time).

                    #12.10 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:19 PM EDT
                    ajzzz

                    Ok, and what causes the changes that allow natural selection to select. And what gives genetic drift the different genes to "drift" to a favorable genome from a less favorable one? Species extinction is relevant because it shows that the changes brought on by evolution are random. Sometimes a species can adapt and they evolve to their changing environment, sometimes not and they go extinct.

                    The changes aren't random, I'll post about this once more on this, anything more would be redundant, species survival depends on their ability to survive, that is evolution, evolution is not random mutation, evolution is natural selection.

                    I repeat, mutation is not evolution, natural selection is, natural selection is definitely not random. If you can't understand this, then you can't understand Evolution, any other comments are irrelevant.

                    And I meant survival in a way as they can survival in an individual sense, as then they will be able to stay alive long enough to find a mate to procreate with (that stuff takes time).

                    That's irrelevant, like extinction and changing enviroment, focusing on it does nothing for understanding evolution. Evolution does not rely on the ability to live long enough to procreate, many species rely on a very small percentage of individuals procreating. You're confusing the discussion no end.

                    • 1 vote
                    #12.11 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:39 PM EDT
                    cleareyes

                    ok I guess we are going to go step by step. Please dont stop commenting because you think you are getting redundant.

                    Evolution is caused by natural selection. Yes. What causes natural selection?

                      #12.12 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:44 PM EDT
                      ajzzz

                      Nothing causes natural selection, natural selection is the concept of species having traits that make the chance more favourable for them to survive.

                      • 2 votes
                      #12.13 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:48 PM EDT
                      cleareyes

                      Ok sorry, what is the reason that some individuals in a species are born with different traits than others, which lead to natural selection "selecting" one.

                      • 1 vote
                      #12.14 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:16 PM EDT
                      ajzzz

                      Inheritance, enviroment, and mutation.

                      • 2 votes
                      #12.15 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:49 PM EDT
                      cleareyes

                      changes brought on by the environment do not change genes (well besides radiation) and these do not get passed on to future generations. And the mutations, which are random, are what is inherited. So, we are back to random mutations.

                        #12.16 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:21 PM EDT
                        ajzzz

                        And the mutations, which are random, are what is inherited. So, we are back to random mutations.

                        And the genes inherited. What is your point to this line of questioning?

                          #12.17 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:34 PM EDT
                          MatthewM

                          The mutations are random, what youre talking about there is intelligent design, which is religion by another name.

                            #12.18 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:58 PM EDT
                            Zeina

                            changes brought on by the environment do not change genes

                            Actually, you are wrong here. Recently, scientists discovered that the environment can change the genes. For example, fat can alter the genes of a person to make him/her more susceptible to certain diseases (aside from the direct effect of the accumulation of fat around the heart ... etc). If your genes are altered then you may also pass it to your offspring.

                            • 3 votes
                            #12.19 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:09 PM EDT
                            ajzzz

                            Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution

                            Evolution has never been observed.
                            Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
                            There are no transitional fossils.
                            The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
                            Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved.

                            "The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance."

                            There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance...

                            http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

                            Until the statement:

                            I'm sorry but how are the genetic mutations that cause evolution not from random chance?

                            is retracted, I'm not going to respond.

                            • 1 vote
                            #12.20 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:34 PM EDT
                            LankaFool

                            I think we all agree that it is natural selection that drives evolution. However natural selection cannot happen if certain traits of a species do not change, and a good amount of a time, these changes are random. So no, evolution is not random. But the mutations that are behind how it works are.

                            Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations.

                            That's from the very same article that you, ajzzz, have provided.

                            Imagine throwing 1,000,000 pebbles at a filter that will only allow one certain shape of pebble to pass. The pebbles are shaped randomly, but it's that one that just so happens to fit the filter that gets through. The filter is your environment, the pebbles are variations of a certain trait. There's your natural selection.

                            • 2 votes
                            #12.21 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:47 PM EDT
                            cleareyes

                            Yes i agree, as natural selection is in no way random, the forces that affect it--gene mutation is (as well as a changing environment).

                              #12.22 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:39 PM EDT
                              ajzzz

                              LankaFool, statesments such as these are fallacy:

                              we are purely the result of random chance

                              I'm sorry but how are the genetic mutations that cause evolution not from random chance?

                              Species extinction is relevant because it shows that the changes brought on by evolution are random.

                              the forces that affect it--gene mutation is (as well as a changing environment).

                              Evolution, natural selection, is not random, regardless of whether the input is.

                              Mutations create variation in the gene pool, and then less favorable (or deleterious) mutations are removed from the gene pool by natural selection, while more favorable (beneficial or advantageous) ones tend to accumulate - this is evolution.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

                              You must understand the importance of separating the input, genes + mutation + enviroment, to the process, which can be described as the cause, the force etc...

                              • 1 vote
                              #12.23 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:46 AM EDT
                              iarnuocon

                              I'd just like to note that ajzzz tips his hand with his quote. He apparently believes that evolution has never been "observed", and that it violates the second law of thermodynamics, as well. He also posits without comment that evolution "is only a theory" without comment. This shows a remarkable willingness to ignore the preponderance of evidence. Claiming that we can't observe something that sometimes takes millions of years (and at others may "only" take a couple tens or hundreds of thousands of years) when science has only been around for roughly 500 years (or in a rigorous form, only 200 years), and using that as the excuse to opine that this means evolution is "just a theory" suggests a lot about the ideological bias he is bringing to the table. This theory has made several observable predictions, and those predictions have been confirmed by observation. Evolution is more than just a guess.

                              Secondly, I'd love to see you prove that evolution violates the 2nd Law. I doubt very much that you can do so. Creationists love to throw this argument out there, as well, and just as wrongly.

                              Third, the theory of evolution makes no claim whatsoever about how life originate. Biologists speculate about the conditions that allowed life to arise, and have many questions about how life began, but evolution does not deal with these in the slightest. It assumes that life originated in some fashion and then proceeds to probe how life changed from that origin to the present day, resulting in the variety of life we see around us. Lumping the origin of life in with evolution is done to discredit the widely accepted theory of the latter by using the widely acknowledged lack of knowledge about the former. It's a cheap rhetorical game that needs to be rapidly identified and shot down every single time some bonehead refuses to address the theory of evolution on what evolution's proponents actually say. Stick to the point.

                              Now, apparently ajzzz is unwilling to acknowledge that evolution is undirected. This seems to imply the reverse claim, that evolution IS directed (since it is apparently not "random"), but this is an idea that is completely unwarranted by the facts. His essential claim is that the whole (evolution) is greater than the sum of its parts: genes + mutation + copying errors + other methods of genetic variation + environment + competition for resources... probably best boiled down as inheritable traits + changing environment + time. Given that the basic inputs of the formula are random (with the exception of time, which would require a whole different discussion on its existence/direction/etc, which I certainly don't have the time or inclination to dive into), what drives the statement that evolution is not "random"?

                              Well? Enlighten us, ajzzz. If evolution is not random, what is it tending toward? What's its goal?

                              Carefully weeding out "the process" of evolution from the key inputs of "the process" for the purpose of claiming that evolutionary results are not random, seems a bit disingenuous. Sure, the process "selects" for fitness, but the environment which determines fitness is itself random, and the variation which drives evolution is random. "Evolution" as you narrowly define it may not be "random" in that there might be a number of genetic arrangements that are equally fit for a given environment, but claiming that this means evolution isn't driven by random change is completely wrong.

                              • 4 votes
                              #12.24 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:44 AM EDT
                              Zeina

                              Akh! I just noticed that my last post was showed all in quotes. Only the first sentence should be :@

                              • 2 votes
                              #12.25 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:06 AM EDT
                              cleareyes

                              ajzzz,
                              I'm not saying that natural selection works randomly and the species that go extinct are not chosen at random. I'm with you in the fact that "the best species" survives. But the distinctions, the reasons that some individuals in a species are born with better (or worse) traits is nothing but random. That is why species extinction is completely relevant. The fact that some species make it and some don't show that there's no governing force. Some species luckily have gain a beneficial mutation (or their environment changes to be more favorable) and some don't and die out.

                              If the forces that give different individuals different traits--allowing natural selection to have something to select from and progress evolution, is not random, I ask you what force is it then?

                              • 1 vote
                              #12.26 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:24 AM EDT
                              ajzzz

                              1. You have misread that quote of general misconceptions of evolution, if I quote a page of misconceptions, then the logic dictates that I'm not arguing for them, especially when I quote why they're misconceptions.
                              2. Evolution is not the input (random), it's natural selection (not random).
                              3. Directed does not mean not random, you're using a logical fallacy.

                              The fallacy:
                              A is B, therefore, B is A.

                              B does not have to be A. Not random does not have to be directed, directed has to be not random.

                              The opposite of undirected is directed. The opposite of random is not random. Not random does not imply there is a goal.

                              4. On a number of occasions you confuse the meaning of random in a scientific context. The enviroment, planets, the universe are not random, their are processes acting upon them that are not random, thus the output can not be determined as:

                              governed by or depending on chance

                              you use the non-scientific ordinary language definition as:

                              lacking any definite plan or order or purpose

                              The input can be random, but if the process is not, the ouput cannot be described as random.

                              • 1 vote
                              #12.27 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:47 AM EDT
                              ajzzz

                              The above is to iarnuocon, took too long writing it, others posted, sorry.

                              If the forces that give different individuals different traits--allowing natural selection to have something to select from and progress evolution, is not random, I ask you what force is it then?

                              Nothing allows natural selection. If something didn't mutate, and that meant it couldn't survive, that is also evolution. It didn't evolve, but it's still part as evolution. Force is an inaccurate word, the force is pressure to survive, it's natural selection.

                                #12.28 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:03 AM EDT
                                Celestina

                                So let me jump in here and try to boil this down simply.

                                1)The original changes which we describe as "mutations" are
                                a)the building blocks of evolution
                                b)"random" in the sense that they are not created by a predictable force
                                2)The process by which evolution (through its method, natural selection) occurs is not random, being determined by the fact that beneficial mutations enable a member of a species to survive better, and thereby increasing the chances that it will reproduce the mutations in its offspring where
                                3) The mutations cease to be mutations as such, but rather become the standard upon which the process can continue to build.
                                4)This process does not require an organized end goal, other than the continued survival of the species.

                                Do I have this right, in essence?

                                • 3 votes
                                #12.29 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:10 AM EDT
                                cleareyes

                                ajzzz,
                                i feel we are going in circles here. Can we agree that natural selection is not random but the genetic mutations that give natural selection something to select from are?

                                  #12.30 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:58 PM EDT
                                  ajzzz

                                  i feel we are going in circles here. Can we agree that natural selection is not random but the genetic mutations that give natural selection something to select from are?

                                  Yes, I can agree with that easily.

                                    #12.31 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:13 PM EDT
                                    iarnuocon

                                    Heh... You have misread that quote of general misconceptions of evolution, if I quote a page of misconceptions, then the logic dictates that I'm not arguing for them, especially when I quote why they're misconceptions. My mistake. I took you to be forwarding an argument. Should have followed the link. Apology forwarded.

                                    On the rest of it, I suspect that we're disagreeing over semantics. You seem to be saying that natural selection IS "evolution", and because it is a process cannot as such be random. I would argue that it also cannot be not random. Look at it this way. If I have a set of random numbers and perform an operation on them (X+7), in what way could the end result (essentially also a set of random numbers, if considered alone) be considered "not random"? You'd have to be able to see the original set, and ascertain the relationship between the two sets to make that claim. Even then, you could not with any authority claim that the output is not as random as the input. Only the relationship between the two sets is not random.

                                    In the same way, I think that when someone claims that "evolution means we are the result of random chance," what is being said is that human beings were not the end goal of evolution, and this is true. Change any of the inputs during the course of evolution, and it is entirely possible (if not likely) that there would be no human beings. In what way, then, can the end product of an evolutionary process not be said to be random? That's where I'm having trouble getting at what you're saying.

                                    Because natural selection is based on a rule (those with the fittest offspring survive), evolution is not random, regardless whether the inputs (genetic changes) are random, and the output is goal-less? From the non-scientific perspective, the non-scientific meaning of the word random seems entirely appropriate. Using the (ordinary) language of the person who made the assertion in the first place, evolution is "random."

                                    (does it help any in considering the process as "random" if changes in the random input results in changes in the output that are only predictable, if at all, by reference to the input? Hell, I'm even confusing myself at this point.)

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #12.32 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:44 PM EDT
                                    ajzzz

                                    On the rest of it, I suspect that we're disagreeing over semantics. You seem to be saying that natural selection IS "evolution", and because it is a process cannot as such be random. I would argue that it also cannot be not random. Look at it this way. If I have a set of random numbers and perform an operation on them (X+7), in what way could the end result (essentially also a set of random numbers, if considered alone) be considered "not random"? You'd have to be able to see the original set, and ascertain the relationship between the two sets to make that claim. Even then, you could not with any authority claim that the output is not as random as the input. Only the relationship between the two sets is not random.

                                    I would claim that the output is not as random as the input, the output would be more likely to be higher. In fact, I'd say the output would not be a random number, and mathematicians would not consider it so.

                                    In the same way, I think that when someone claims that "evolution means we are the result of random chance," what is being said is that human beings were not the end goal of evolution, and this is true. Change any of the inputs during the course of evolution, and it is entirely possible (if not likely) that there would be no human beings. In what way, then, can the end product of an evolutionary process not be said to be random? That's where I'm having trouble getting at what you're saying.

                                    It was determined by the fitness to survive, in a different environment, there would be no humans as we know ourselves, it's not random that humans are surviving just because if the variables were different something else might have been fitter to survive.

                                    Because natural selection is based on a rule (those with the fittest offspring survive), evolution is not random, regardless whether the inputs (genetic changes) are random, and the output is goal-less? From the non-scientific perspective, the non-scientific meaning of the word random seems entirely appropriate. Using the (ordinary) language of the person who made the assertion in the first place, evolution is "random."

                                    They used the phrase "random chance", I do not prefer to use this term, and rely on the context of the discussion. You're right though, if you were to use the ordinary language meaning of the word, then yes evolution is random, i.e. does not have a goal.

                                    (does it help any in considering the process as "random" if changes in the random input results in changes in the output that are only predictable, if at all, by reference to the input? Hell, I'm even confusing myself at this point.)

                                    Evolution is not the output of natural selection and genetic drift.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #12.33 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:45 PM EDT
                                    Jack Huang

                                    As to the specific random number example, if you didn't know the X+7 process, how would you know that the resulting set of numbers is higher? Higher than what? You have no idea what the "correct" distribution centers around. Indeed, for a truly random set of numbers, the set should have no center.

                                    A mathematician would have no way to knowing the resulting set of numbers is not random.

                                    Evolution is not the output of natural selection and genetic drift.

                                    What else is it the product of? (Since you're arguing against "random," I'm assuming you're not going to say "random mutations")

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #12.34 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:53 PM EDT
                                    ajzzz

                                    As to the specific random number example, if you didn't know the X+7 process, how would you know that the resulting set of numbers is higher? Higher than what? You have no idea what the "correct" distribution centers around. Indeed, for a truly random set of numbers, the set should have no center.

                                    A mathematician would have no way to knowing the resulting set of numbers is not random.

                                    A mathematician would have no idea that the numbers were not random or random regardless, a number cannot be considered random or not on its own, its how it was generated. The process makes it unrandom, and it's not a question of changing the distribution centre, the function x+7 would not do that.

                                    What else is it the product of? (Since you're arguing against "random," I'm assuming you're not going to say "random mutations")

                                    Evolution is not the output/product, the output is the product of evolution, I'm assuming you misread.

                                      #12.35 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:42 PM EDT
                                      Jack Huang

                                      If you operate X+7 on a predefined set of numbers, and you call the result nonrandom, then you must also call the input nonrandom, as you're working from a predefined set of numbers.

                                      And, as just a nitpick, if the original set of numbers had a distribution center (which I'll assume that it does,if we're dealing with a closed set), then X+7 would raise it by 7. :-p

                                      Ah, I agree that evolution is the process, to be equated with natural selection+genetic drift. It's not a step in the journey in and of itself.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.36 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:35 PM EDT
                                      ajzzz

                                      If you operate X+7 on a predefined set of numbers, and you call the result nonrandom, then you must also call the input nonrandom, as you're working from a predefined set of numbers.

                                      Due to the example of evolution I would not say they were predefined.

                                      And, as just a nitpick, if the original set of numbers had a distribution center (which I'll assume that it does,if we're dealing with a closed set), then X+7 would raise it by 7. :-p

                                      You're right, if the set was closed the distribution centre would raise it by 7. Why would we be dealing with a closed set? If the random variables represent genetic variation in a simple way, then I don't see why the set would be closed.

                                      I think using a simple function and random numbers might not be the best for modelling evolution. I also hate statistics, I try to keep it 50 metres from me at all times.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #12.37 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:59 AM EDT
                                      Zeina

                                      I think the best way to model evolution is the Monte Carlo method. You generate random numbers but those that doesn't fit your criteria are thrown away. However the criteria depend on the last accepted random number (or set or random numbers).

                                        #12.38 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:30 PM EDT
                                        Zeina

                                        or set OF random numbers.

                                        Do you agree ajzzz?

                                          #12.39 - Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:31 PM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Walt D

                                          Morality, when it is dictated by biblical decree, IMO is not true morality at all. It is based on fear and the most selfish motives - avoiding Hell or smiting or (insert form of divine retribution here). Selflessness and compassion are the beginnings of true morality, though I hesitate to even use the term. The word "morality" in our society carries connotations of dogma and judgement with it, thanks to its hijacking by Judeo-Christian agendas.

                                          Note: I'm not Christian-bashing here - other religions are just as guilty. It's just that the nonstop slew of ultra pro-Christian, anti-everybody else articles is really starting to get my nuts in a blender.

                                          • 9 votes
                                          Reply#13 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:21 PM EDT
                                          cleareyes

                                          The word "morality" in our society carries connotations of dogma and judgement with it, thanks to its hijacking by Judeo-Christian agendas.

                                          I feel like you might be going a bit too far here. I think religion has its place and if you look at some of the top articles on Newsvine, even right now: "Rage Over MySpace Photo Leads to Arrest", "French Police Kill Man Who Took Hostages" ect, I think we can agree not everyone is moral on their own. There is where religion comes in, kind of keeping those of us that need it in line. It's not bad to have a dogma especially one that is moral, the trouble comes when you judge and expect the same of others I believe.

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #13.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:28 PM EDT
                                          Walt D

                                          So you are advocating religious dogma as a restraining device for less evolved folks who would otherwise kill and kidnap? Fair enough. My problem is that you almost never hear the word "morality" in our culture without a religious connection.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          #13.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:36 PM EDT
                                          Noah BradleyDeleted
                                          Walt D

                                          Noah,

                                          I believe the original intent of most religions was to provide followers with a path to spiritual perfection. Over the course of time, through the process of dogmatization, they devolve into "God said Do This Or Else." Even Buddhists have managed to invent a Hell (or several) - which is really strange as they don't have a God! A lot of modern Christians still "get it" and practice the original intent: love, charity, compassion, etc. It's just that the bad apples are so much louder.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #13.4 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:03 PM EDT
                                          Noah BradleyDeleted
                                          Reply
                                          Mike O'Hara

                                          I am partially agnostic, meaning I dont believe in any organized religion, or most others for that matter, however I do have a belief structure, and stand by it.

                                          I have a theory of religion that has been my basis for its understanding (in my mind) for many years.

                                          Here we go:

                                          This goes back to basic animal behavior. Humans are Pack animals by nature. We congregate and exist in groups. As humans (and the human mind) grew and evolved we started to question things around us and we started to seek explanations for the "unexplainable".
                                          Explanations started to appear that *insert supernatural thing here* was created by a power more powerful then themselves - a "god" so to speak. The one who could explain that to the other humans appeared more Know-ed than they were and people started to get drawn to them and to this mythical power by relation.

                                          The basic need that humans had to be in a group and have a basic hierarchical structure lead to them worshiping this person of knowledge and the "god" (the person of knowledge became either the leader of the worshiping group (In some cases the Royal was seen as the conduit of God(s), or equal to the level of a God(s)).

                                          As we are evolving in life, the need for this organization is becoming less and less, and this basic need is now being exploited more than it is needed. The "Organized religions" seek profit from the beliefs that are in many cases forced on those in its circles.

                                          Here is my belief system:

                                          As we grow as humans and evolve into our place in the universe, it becomes clearer and clearer to me that Religion in its essence needs to be moved into a more personal level.

                                          We are our own Gods. We have the absolute power for ourselves and we control our own destiny. Way more than anyone even begins to realize or understand. Most people see the power that they have as a divine presence because they do not see their own potential, or understand it.

                                          Example: Joe J. Person is down on his luck... he has to find a job to support his family. He prays to God (Christian in this example, for sake of argument) that god may grant him luck in getting a job. After his prayer he goes out and goes job hunting. In the next few days he gets the great news that he has found a job! He is in the clear! Was it God who gave him this job? No. Joe did it all by his lonesome.

                                          Subconsciously he is planted a seed and directed the course of his motivation, because he has prayed and is faithful to his religion, he feels empowered by it. Joe is given a boost of self confidence by thinking he has god on his side (by praying) So now he is pumped up and goes job hunting... his confidence shows to his potential employer and he gets a call back.

                                          This is only one example I can think of, but what I am getting at is, People control their own destiny and they only need to change the way they think and be positive about themselves, to get what they want. No Divine power can do that for you.

                                          Now for some people the Idea of religion may be a good thing. This is because, for whatever reason, they lack the self confidence to build upon themselves. Religion can help them gain that image of confidence (even if they dont know they have it themselves).

                                          In consequence that is the VERY thing that organized religion preys on to keep the weak and weak minded in the faith. They (The Organized Religions) play on the fact that they have no confidence in themselves and the only way to get anywhere in life is to do what they are told.

                                          *Disclaimer Alert*

                                          I'm not trying to lump all religion into one bucket. I know that some religions are better than others in how they handle those of faith (personal belief), and for those who are of faith, I mean no offence by my comments.

                                          *Whew - I hope I havent made total mess of that.. and I hope I havent made everyone hate me, lol*

                                          • 7 votes
                                          Reply#14 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:50 PM EDT
                                          Miss Dev

                                          Okay - just a quick thought on the subject (kind of jumping off of Mike's comment - but not wanting to hijack it) - if morality keeps us from destroying ourselves and others, so, morality is necessary for survival - and if morality is religiously based - then wouldn't that mean that animals would have to have some consciousness of religion (or, at least, spirituality) in order to exist?

                                          It's just a random thought I had. Figured I'd toss it out there.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          Reply#15 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:00 PM EDT
                                          Mike O'Hara

                                          Its an interesting thought...

                                          goes back to pack mentality.. wolves in a pack know how to behave within their pack. how is that behaviour developed?

                                          is it learned when young? or is it instinctual?

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #15.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:31 PM EDT
                                          Miss Dev

                                          Ah, the great question of nature vs nurture.

                                          In fact, wolves are often my primary example when it comes to comparing humans to the animal world. (Have you read any of my Human Condition series? Because, if not, what an interesting coincidence).

                                          Wolves do learn many of their behaviors - such as hunting. Having personally witnessed the education of pups by elder wolves in a pack, I can tell you that it is a greatly learned behavior. However, that which is learned is mostly strategy and communication - not so much the actual practicality of it such as chasing, biting, and where to attack to bring the prey down.

                                          But, in wolf packs, the hierarchy is constantly being reinforced - and is always in flux. Nothing in nature is stagnant. Animals are constantly testing their environment. Why is it that humans are so adverse to change? So willing to accept things as wrote rather than constantly questioning and learning?

                                          My personal beliefs are the animals are much closer to the divine than humans. And I believe that it is an inherent part of our nature to be curious and to explore. I think it is a learned behavior to stagnate our behavior and to fear change. I believe that we are not born hateful, fearful, warring creatures - but that those behaviors are a product of our societies.

                                          Of course, I also believe more strongly in "Id, Ego, Superego" and less in "morality." I believe that we all have temptations and impulses that, to some, may seem immoral - and that there is something internal that tells us which behaviors to act on and which to stifle. When that inner voice (our "conscience") is corrupted is when we commit those acts - like murder - that are so "immoral" and heinous.

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #15.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:53 PM EDT
                                          cleareyes

                                          But, in wolf packs, the hierarchy is constantly being reinforced - and is always in flux. Nothing in nature is stagnant. Animals are constantly testing their environment.

                                          I see what you re saying but I think you are being too broad. Adaptations (at least in an evolutionary sense) are not in a single generation. Yet instead the adaptations come from genetic code changing over generations (or the environment changing to be more favorable as was said before). But wolves are only accepting of change in a way that they are used to, in what their instincts (which comes from genetics) tell them to accept. You put an animal in an environment that is totally different from their own and they will not accept that change. Just as humans find comfort in familiarity, animals are no different.

                                            #15.3 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:02 PM EDT
                                            Miss Dev

                                            @cleareyes - you do make a valid point - but not a universal one. Wolves are instinctively wild animals that fear humans - however, if they are raised from a young age with humans, they will learn to accept them as part of their pack. This is not an instinctual thing - it is learned. While any animal may be fearful of change initially - most will easily adapt to the situation.

                                            And here is an excellent quote about adaptability:

                                            Among God's creatures two, the dog and the guitar, have taken all the sizes and all the shapes, in order not be separated from the man - Andre Segovia

                                            It was not in the wolf's nature to team up with man as a hunting companion - but they learned to work together - and from those very first learned changes is where we eventually get all the shapes and sizes of dogs.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #15.4 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:51 PM EDT
                                            cleareyes

                                            @Miss Dev
                                            I agree there is nuturing. But as an infant, there is not change as the infant is not changing from anything. There is a blank slate. Just as ducks will follow around a man if he is the first to feed them. Try to raise a wolf that has been in the wild for 6 months and you will have a much harder time.

                                              #15.5 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:19 PM EDT
                                              iarnuocon

                                              cleareyes: the blank slate assumption is just that, an assumption. It's not very well borne out by observation. The reality is that all creatures fall to some degree between the extremes of the blank slate and pure genetic determinism. Ducklings will follow a man around precisely because creatures are not "blank slates" when they are born. In the same way, animals whose instincts cause them to fear the unusual (and I'd include men in that category) can learn to accomodate what was unusual into their behavior-- this is one reason why it's a bad idea to feed wild animals, for instance.

                                              • 4 votes
                                              #15.6 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:54 AM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              FL Independent

                                              I dont believe in god but I live my life by most of the normal morals most people do. The simple answer is, its in our own best interest. If we dont, we devolve into anarchy and life would suck for all us. The moral code, which does not need god to exist, is needed for society, family, and life, to function, flourish and succeed.

                                              • 6 votes
                                              Reply#16 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:29 PM EDT
                                              Mike O'Hara

                                              Well Put.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #16.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:32 PM EDT
                                              Reply
                                              iarnuocon

                                              Anyone who is interested in this subject might try reading The Evolution of Cooperation, or indeed, any of a number of other books on the biological basis for altruism.

                                              • 3 votes
                                              Reply#17 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:18 PM EDT
                                              Danny McGee

                                              Selective forces removed his gross immorality and lack of feeling for other human beings from the gene pool when he killed himself after murdering other people. That's about all I have to say. Evolution gave us morals. Using evolution as an excuse to be immoral is stupid.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#18 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:19 PM EDT
                                              Danny McGee

                                              Oh, and another thing...

                                              He viewed most people as being worthless, and would have selectively killed most U.S. citizens if he could.

                                              That's really stupid. Natural selection =/= I get to choose who should and shouldn't be allowed to reproduce. Natural selection. Not stupid teenage angst selection.

                                              This kid was clearly a disturbed human being, either with some social disorder or just so angry at the world he was willing to twist his beliefs to make himself feel less guilty for wanting to kill people. I lean towards the latter, considering he killed himself once it was all over.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              Reply#19 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:24 PM EDT
                                              twent12

                                              Any word used for "God", in essence, describes the unknown, the supernatural, and the sublime. To many people, 'God' is more commonly used to personify the unknown, because it makes it easier to accept and simpler to understand and discuss. Without a certain level of enlightenment, this also causes confusion, encouraging people to believe that something as intangible as "the unknown" can take on form, actions, and make judgements over people as if it were human- because that's what humans do. We take action and make judgments on other people.

                                              But the moral code (like FL mentions) is intrinsically known- it's not part of the unknown, it's not part of God. The proper mash-up of these two memes (Morality + The Unknown) is Spirituality: a passion and curiosity to understand how ones own actions and path in life fit into a universal purpose. "Religion" is a mash-up of two different memes (Moral Judgement + God, the personified unknown). At best, Religion is a lighter and more digestible form of Spirituality. But at its worst, it is religious fundamentalism that brings out the worst types of judgements, and actions, by people on one another.

                                              • 2 votes
                                              Reply#20 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:53 PM EDT
                                              Mike O'Hara

                                              Thats part of the point I make in my comment above. (the long one)

                                                #20.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:13 AM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                Mike from Phoenix

                                                Morality is a concept that humans have developed through thousands of years of evolution. Religion hijacked morality in an effort to control human behaviour - we need to reclaim morality for the secular good. Morality is completely natural - a human instinct. Some of us are born with a tendency towards more moral behaviour while others lack this tendency. Humans are a weak species at the individual level. How long could any one of us survive on our own without the support of social groups? We developed a concept of morality to allow us to live within large social groups which resulted in the survival of our species. Without morality society will break down and we will destroy ourselves.

                                                Survival of the fittest rules - who is the fittest human? It is not the strongest, or the smartest, or the bravest. The strongest human is the person who can lead others in the pursuit of goals which promote the growth and survival of society. The fittest humans are our moral leaders.

                                                People like the Columbine killers are certainly not the fittest (their gene pool did not get very far). Our prisons are filled with people who reject morality and must be segregated from society. In ancient times they would be cast out from the social group - a fate which certainly led to death. Lack of morality leads to deletion from the gene pool - natural selection is an amazing thing.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#21 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:56 PM EDT
                                                drulff

                                                Good point. This is one side that I don't think has really been discussed yet. While a lot has been said about moral behaviour being adopted by groups of people for mutual benefits of survival and comfort, I strongly believe in innate morality in most people. I am also an agnostic, of the worst kind, and yet I feel I am very, very moral. Part of it comes from logic, but a lot of it comes from just natural empathy. I believe this is something that comes from evolution where the causal factors are exactly those being discussed, but that is irrelevant. Whatever its source, empathy is innate, and within most humans (perhaps to varying degrees, and perhaps sometimes conditioned out of people, but still there none-the-less). For example, I would feel very bad if I were to see a child in distress, and would naturally want to comfort the kid.
                                                When people ask me how I can reconcile not having faith in a higher order, or god, and still have hope and feel moral obligations, I say I do have faith, its just (and this is going to sound very sappy) I have faith in humanity (as a whole) and in human nature itself. If anything, I think the creation of organized religions based on good will and love only proves this. I think the "evils" in the world, of which there are overwhelmingly many, are mostly the result of environmental factors (and I don't mean weather), conditioning from existing problems and "evils", fear, personal need for "retribution", anger, and the conflict between other innate attributes, such as selfishness and the need for acceptance, with the inherent good. Because we often have trouble understanding others, and sometimes feel alone, the good can be scared into resignation and rationalized defeat.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #21.1 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:17 PM EDT
                                                Mike from Phoenix

                                                I agree, people are generally moral and have an instinct for preserving social structure. Religions use this as a recruiting tool. I overheard a conversion the other day between a couple of intelligent individuals I work with (cube walls make it tough to miss some conversations). One of the individuals mentioned that he would be taking his kids to church as soon as they were able old enough to function in that setting. The other person asked him if he really believed all that superstitious stuff. He said that he didn't, but that he wanted his kids raised with a sense of family and community that religion provided.

                                                I think that a lot of people join churches for the social structure. They are perpetuating this mythology because they have no other options to find the social support offered by religious groups. I really wish these people felt they had options other than joining religious organizations.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #21.2 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:34 PM EDT
                                                FL Independent

                                                This may seem strange but I look at the roads and traffic as a decent gauge of the human condition. As long as traffic continues to operate well, during which you are putting faith that everyone else on the road is acting appropriately and cooperating, then things are still doing ok.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #21.3 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:05 AM EDT
                                                StewartColbert08

                                                Mike from Phoenix... I agree with your church point in your second paragraph...the concept behind them is great it is a combination of all the points made in here that I have the problem with the religion behind them. If they were just called Community Centers, I think it would be a lot better. just think how much more involved people would be, how much more willing people would be to help out eliminating religion from the groups purpose. Only to get to know each other and help each other. Then there is no competitiveness... No, who donated the most, who goes to the church to pray the most... it is just people helping each other out in the community.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                #21.4 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:53 AM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                RichardG

                                                The prisoner's dilema is a simple two player game that some people have used to try and help explain why moral codes develop.

                                                It's a game of trust and betrayal. Betraying a trusting player is the way to earn the most points, but in the end mutual trust is the least damaging choice.

                                                • 3 votes
                                                Reply#22 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:04 PM EDT
                                                Aine MacDermot

                                                With regard to the title: Being An Atheist Doesn't Mean You Are Immoral, the opposite is also true: Being Religious Doesn't Mean You Are Moral... although I often think that people do -- all too often -- believe that just because a person says they are religious, it automagically confers upon them a mantle of morality. But, this isn't necessarily true, and I'm sure we can all think of several televangelists, for example, that would serve as examples.

                                                I don't belong to any "organized religion" although I have had formal religious education and I've studied several religions. I find that most religions contain, like sand, several grains of truth, but that there are often other agendas within religions that I cannot agree with nor lend my support to, which I would be doing, I think, by proclaiming my membership in a specific religious group... and rather than be a hypocrite, I'd prefer to go it alone with my own private beliefs based on the experiences I've had (which you, Celestina, know a little bit about). *grin*

                                                • 4 votes
                                                Reply#23 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:03 PM EDT
                                                jnearen

                                                I would like to say something terribly clever or, even better, profound. The simple truth is, though, I find the above line of discussion terribly sad. Every assertion is based on the simple premise that we each have a claim, to our right, to ourselves.

                                                Oswald Chambers explained in 1930 that when confronted by people from various walks of life, Jesus never judged them for their morality, either as being debased or as fine upstanding citizens. He treated everyone equally and always looked deeper to see if they set themselves up as their own gods. On that basis alone did he instruct them. So, for the rich young man he said, give up your dough. To the highly religious he said stop burdening your people. Therein lies the rub, Chambers astuely pointed out that sin has nothing to do with morality. Rather, it is the arrogance of humanity claiming a right that it does not posses--a claim to your right to yourself. In other words, setting yourself up as God as though you actually knew anything. We travel through this space, this incredible, marvelous, delicious space and we contribute nothing to its creation. We only consume. Then we arrogantly proclaim, I see no God nor anything he has created. Not good, people, not good.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#24 - Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:40 PM EDT
                                                FL Independent

                                                Its only arrogant if you make the assumption, which you appear to be making, that there is a god. The idea that there is a god and we are all wrong is arrogant as well.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #24.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:57 AM EDT
                                                MatthewM

                                                Each religion also arrogantly claims that it's god(s) is the one true god(s), how is that less arrogant than my belief that there is no god?

                                                Surely mine is the more neutral - or even-handed atleast?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #24.2 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:00 PM EDT
                                                Reply
                                                El Maestro

                                                The answer to why and how an athiest can have morals is simple. Why would murder, suicide, rape, robbery, prejudice be okay simply because there is no religious belief? Well, how many species of animals (to whom we feel are superior to) do all these things? None of them, yet they have no organized societies or moral beliefs. Its a simple part of being a living being that these things are wrong and against basic laws of nature. No species is inherently bent on self destruction.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#25 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:14 AM EDT
                                                Jack Huang

                                                Actually, on the note of animal behaviors, male lions who recently took over a group of females from another male will deliberately kill the cubs to place females in heat (a female with cubs does not go into heat, ever). Chimpanzee and baboon clans have been observed to go to war over territory, sometimes with deadly results. A termite guard will snap any termites of a different mound in half if they're within range of its home mound.

                                                Of course, these behaviors aren't very different from the behaviors of the religious and the non-religious, alike.

                                                As for organized societies, it depends on where you're drawing the line, but chimpanzees, bonobos, dolphins, termites, groundhogs, naked mole rats, and wolves all have complex social structures governing clan behavior.

                                                These are not rebuttals, but more like clarifications.

                                                I completely and utterly agree with one thing: No species if inherently bent on self-destruction.

                                                If extrapolated to behavioral optimization, we'll find that modern concepts of social (or religiou) morality are all but inevitable.

                                                • 5 votes
                                                #25.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:17 PM EDT
                                                El Maestro

                                                Indeed many species do have tendencies to kill other beings, but it is generally not against members of its own species and when it is, its usually to fullfil a basic need, such as security of a colony.

                                                But yeah, even if you look back to the early stages of human evolution, we weren't always killing and torturing each other for no reason.

                                                • 4 votes
                                                #25.2 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:36 PM EDT
                                                Daniel A. Hallo

                                                The origin of Morals and what they are are very simple, and that's why so many find the subject complicated and easy to confuse and control others with. No Religion NONE, has an exclusive patent on our Human range of feelings and natural abilities... or can anybody deny their animal origins, externalize the behavioral extremes of man as separate, and ever learn to control them from within. No culpability for themselves.

                                                Morals evolved from the need of social animals to live and co-operate in groups without eating each other. What is harm for the individual is harmfull for all.

                                                "The want or imperfection of the moral sense in some men, like the want or imperfection of the senses of sight and hearing in others, is no proof that it is a general characteristic of the species." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.

                                                "I sincerely... believe... in the general existence of a moral instinct. I think it the brightest gem with which the human character is studded, and the want of it as more degrading than the most hideous of the bodily deformities." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.

                                                "I believe... that [the sense of justice] is instinct and innate, that the moral sense is as much a part of our constitution as that of feeling, seeing, or hearing; as a wise Creator must have seen to be necessary in an animal destined to live in society." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1816.

                                                  #25.3 - Sun Aug 1, 2010 9:23 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  marc kula

                                                  i didn't read everyone's responses to this so i may be repeating a point already mentioned so thanks for reading.

                                                  even not believing in a god or gods does not mean you're immoral. morality is exclusive from religion in my opinion.

                                                  Agnostics are those people who haven't decided and in my opinion, you should eventually make a choice. Either believe in god or don't. Eventually you will know. There is no rush but there is a choice to be made. Once you have, take your choice into your heart and live for it. The sooner you make that call the better because there is a lot of good that can come of either choice being indecided isn't helping anyone.

                                                  Pick one and believe in it with all your heart.

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  Reply#26 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:31 AM EDT
                                                  RichardG

                                                  I'm not sure you can believe in 'nothing' with all your heart.

                                                  Being agnostic seems like a fine choice; believing with all your heart that there are just some questions you will never be able to answer.

                                                  I think many atheists probably put their heart into their other beliefs and activities.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #26.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:15 AM EDT
                                                  Jack Huang

                                                  Why pick? You've basically just said "picking one is very good" but have given no reasons why.

                                                  Can you elaborate?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #26.2 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:19 PM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  John Denney

                                                  Celestina,

                                                  Good of you to start a separate thread, and I appreciate your thoughts.

                                                  However, you stated a different argument than mine. You said, "If there is no God, there is no basis for a moral system." My point was that if there is no God, there may be as many moral systems as there are people. You have your moral system; Eric and Dylan (the Columbine shooters) had theirs. Ghandi had his; Saddam had his.

                                                  I think people are basically conflicted. On the one hand, they are created in the image and likeness of God, knowing the difference between good and evil. That might be why all religions and even atheists pretty much agree that it's generally not acceptable to kill somebody for no reason. On the other hand, we're born wanting not "Thy will be done", but "My will be done". Hence the hypocrites. They know and tell everyone the right thing to do, but when it comes down to a personal situation . . . You find a wallet and one side of you says return it; the other side says "I want the cash." A friend can sway you one way or the other: "Do the right thing" or "Finders, keepers; losers, weepers!" If no one's there, then you may think, "No one will ever know." The more you give in to the dark side, the more the conscience is seared, and the easier it is to continue and maybe do even worse. Cute little Anakin becomes Darth Vader.

                                                  • 4 votes
                                                  Reply#27 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:34 AM EDT
                                                  RichardG

                                                  This has definitely been true for me.

                                                  A while ago the chocolate machine at work started to give out chocolate for free. All you needed to do was put some money in, make your selection, you would then get your chocolate and your money back, and sometimes the money of several people before who hadn't realised their money wasn't been taken.

                                                  For several days I took advantage of this as did several other people. They had to refill the machine every day. But then it slowly dawned on me that I was stealing, I was hit by a pang of guilt (or possibly stomach ache) and I reported the machine broken.

                                                  My moral code conflicted with my desire for chocolate. At first I justified it by saying I'd bought lots of chocolate before and it was overpriced. 50p for a Mars Bar is just silly, when they cost 35p on the high-street. In the end however, that excuse wasn't good enough for me. I think we have to believe we're doing the right thing to be happy and your own moral code is how you decide if you are doing the right thing.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #27.1 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:43 AM EDT
                                                  Celestina

                                                  Hey, John. Thanks for taking the time to post here.

                                                  You say:

                                                  My point was that if there is no God, there may be as many moral systems as there are people...On the one hand, they are created in the image and likeness of God, knowing the difference between good and evil. That might be why all religions and even atheists pretty much agree that it's generally not acceptable to kill somebody for no reason. On the other hand, we're born wanting not "Thy will be done", but "My will be done". Hence the hypocrites. They know and tell everyone the right thing to do, but when it comes down to a personal situation . . .

                                                  So your point is that with a large variance of moral systems, we run the risk of some of them being flawed? I can't argue with this. But what worried me what what seemed to be the inherent assumption that without belief in God, people were more likely to resort to dangerous action, which is what I tried to address in this article. "My will be done" does not equate immorality, any more than accepting the standards of another equates morality (though I understand your position that the will of the leaders of a religion is distinct from the will of God).

                                                  In the end, if you begin with the premise that we are all made in God's image, but with the free will to ignore His commandments, then I don't think that accepting or not accepting God really makes that much of a difference in one's morality--merely in one's expectations. Within all of us, using that system of belief, the seeds of morality continue to exist, and may be adhered to or ignored with or without belief in God.

                                                  • 2 votes
                                                  #27.2 - Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:41 AM EDT
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